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Forums - General - Are there any religions or cults that you just do not understand? With in reason.

Cirio said:

Good questions, I'll try to explain some of them to you (warning, this might be a long one!):

Women: The views you're expressing here about women are completely false and possibly provoked by what you've been seeing in the media recently (ie: women being mistreated, covering themselves in hijab, etc). Before the time where Islam was "created", women were treated like animals used only for sex and trafficking. Islam actually paved the way for women to live equal lives when women had none. Before any of the rules of Islam were established (such as prayers), the two main components Propet Muhammad taught was a belief in one God (Allah means God in Arabic), and to have respect; respect for elders and for women. In Islam it is actually frowned upon for a man to talk to a non-blood related woman while making eye contact, for it shows disrespect. Men are supposed to look down in the presense of the woman and talk to her kindly. Also, the Quran gives women many perks that it doesn't give men, such as a guarantee to heaven for a good Muslim mother (there's nothing like that for the father). No where in the Quran does it say that women should cover up their heads and faces; those are things created by culture.

Moving to present times, most of what you hear about women are from countries such as Afghanistan, Libya, Iran, etc. You must realize that those countries are underdeveloped and have poor governmental structure. Women being treated badly in those countries has nothing to do with religion, rather with the country struggling. There was a time in the US where women were treated with unequality too, and that was because we hadn't established proper laws for giving women equal rights (it is within male nature to be dominant). Many of the countries you constantly hear about in the media are either new, or underdeveloped. For example, the government in Afghanistan has always been extremely weak, this has helped groups like the Taliban to spread their reign over the country. Women cover themselves up and halt from basic advancement (like education) because they are afraid of the Taliban and the rules they've spread. If you look in contrast to countries like Pakistan, Dubai and Abu Dhabi, you'll be amazed at how liberal and educated women are. In Pakistan there are actually more female doctors and engineering emerging than men. And these women are marrying men based on love, not the submissive forcefulness that you see/hear about in the media. In conclusion, it is the country and the politics that create unequality, not religion. If you have more detailed question about women in Islam, feel free to ask!

Homosexuals: You are correct about this one; Homosexuality is a sin in Islam. But it is more of a universal thing between the three major religions because homosexuality is not accepted in both Christianity and Judaism.

Adultery is not acceptable in any religion and it is frowned upon by society as well. I'm not sure what you're asking here.

Stoning: Once again, I don't understand this question; stoning to death is not acceptable in Islam. I mean, back when Islam was created, the non-believers would stone Muslims to death or crush them in boulders for believing in God. Killing in Islam is a major sin, however if you are doing it as self defense (ie: the person is about to kill you), then you are obviously allowed to act on your natural instincts. I believe you've heard this "stoning to death" somewhere, so I'd like to know the source of your question so that I can better form my answer.

Jihad: This is probably the most misused term. Jihad literally translates to "to strive for". In Islam, Jihad would be a mother striving to keep her children healthy; a father striving to support his family by going to work; a muslim striving to be faithful by attending friday prayer. That is what Jihad is. There is also a military application of it, something that Osama Bin Laden did. It is for a muslim to travel to another muslim country that is being invaded by non-muslims. Osama did this for Afghanistan during the time when the Soviets were trying to invade Afghanistan. And that's it. That is Jihad and nothing more. Now the terrorists are freakin' blowing this term out of proportion, as they are claiming to do Jihad by killing Americans because they believe the Americans are invading Afghanistan. That is false and it is the incorrect usage of Islam (then again, the terrorists aren't muslim). As for the Israeli conflict, I think you can easily deduce why and military movement by them is jurisdiction for Jihad; a lot of the tension has to do with the political hatred between Jews and Muslims. But the Israeli closure policies also make it difficult for Palestini Muslims to reach places of worship. That is reason enough for Jihad.

If you have any more questions, please ask.

You're correct in most parts, but some things need to be cleared up:

- It's actually stated in the Qur'an to dress modestly and cover up places that would provoke harassment (people are more lenient on the covering of the face since they don't pay as much attention to it as they do the hair and body). And realistically, covering the body/not dressing loosely prevents/reduces the likeliness of the woman becoming a target. 

- Stoning, in the Hadith, is the punishment for adultery, and their means of repentance. And this can only be carried out if there are enough witnesses to testify against them. However, its employment as capital punishment is usually used for cheating husbands and the lady he had an affair with. Now as for pre-marital sex, while some societies choose to still employ capital punishment, it's usually punished by 100 lashes.

It can be forgiven, but supposedly the only way to fully repent from them is to accept the consequences as per the Hadith. However, I'm gonna read more into this.

- The countries you mentioned in which the women are mistreated are also strict authoritarian regimes that restricts human rights in general, and the scapegoat for the rule is Sharia law.

- About the Palestine-Israel conflict: There were never (serious) tensions until the British Mandate. And it's not just what you mentioned, there's the Israeli regime's other interior and foreign policies in regards to the Palestinians and neighboring countries, amongst many other things. But that's a complex issue that can't be described here.

- Just FYI Dubai and Abu Dhabi are part of one country called the UAE (United Arab Emirates). But personally, I think Muslim countries should take notes from Malaysia, especially under Mahathir Mohamad, Turkey ever since Erdogan came (though the secularists dislike him, or at least his religious policies), and Qatar. Those are what I call progressive countries in the Islamic world.



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osamanobama said:
wilco said:
Player1x3 said:
wilco said:
Player1x3 said:
wilco said:
sapphi_snake said:
Killiana1a said:

Islam. Is it the eastern version of Mormonism where wannabe alpha males marry submissive wives who want to be abused with their misery condoned by the religious text?

How about the treatment of women wanting to be equal to men, homosexuals wanting to lead a life of dignity and adulterers expressing their marital dissatisfaction in Islam? Why is their misery and death by stoning accepted by the religion while any military movement by Israel is considered justification for jihad?

I have never understood Islam and would love to understand what I consider are gross, unapologetic hypocrisies from those who prescribe to the Islamic faith.

You are aware that christianity was like that not too long ago, right?

It still is. The words in the bible haven't changed. I actually respect modern islam more than modern christianity. Modern christianity doesn't even resemble the christianity outlined in the bible. People just take whichever bits and pieces they like and call it christianity.

According to christianity

- Women are not allowed to speak before the congregation.

- Women must cover their heads in the presence of christian males.

- Homosexuality is condemned.

People forget that christianity started out as a CULT.

Not really, those are all from Torah books, the old testament and jewish writings, which has very little to do with Christianity. Christianity is founed upon New Testament. Christianity is based upon teachings of Christ

Everything I said is from the new testament. 

Women Head covering: 1 11: 4-15

Homosexuality: 1 6: 9, Romans 1: 26-28

Also, the only thing that changed from the old testament to the new testament is most of the jewish rituals were done away with and death sentences were no longer handed out. But as a general rule if it was wrong in the old testament it continued to be wrong in the new testament.

Ah yes, taking Biible quotes out of contex, favorite strategy of an atheist. Did you actually proceed to read aftter Corintheus 15, or you just cherry pick the quotes you like, the same thing your menitoned in your first post?

http://www.1211ministries.com/images/St._Paul_Addresses_Problems_in_Corinth_and_Ephesus.pdf

As for Romans 1, it actually condamns ''shamefull acts'' aka LUST, not homosexuality itself. It does call homosexuality unnatural and lustfull tho. The people were condamned because of shameful acts and their lustfull and un natural deisres. The same thing for them could be said if they were lustful for the opposite sex.

And the general rule in New Testament is '' dont do anything to others that you dont wish to be done to yourself and love and respect your God''. While old testament and the jewish writings put A LOT MRE emphasis on the correct worship and behaviour, the new testament puts emphasis on the correct and orthodox beliefs, as well as morals of christ. They are very different, its only that you choose to see and read what you want to see and read

First of all I am not an atheist. I'm not a practicing christian either but that is only because I decided that if your going to live as a christian it sould be all or nothing. It shouldn't be a matter of picking and choosing which parts of christianity best fit your lifestyle and molding the rest to suit you. I don't quote these scriptures to denounce Christianity, I quote them to clarify what Christianity teaches. I'm tired of seeing it misrepresented by people who are only trying to justify their own lifestyles.

I've read 1st Corinthians, I've read the entire bible. I didn't get my understanding of the bible from webpages. Don't give me webpages, give me biblical text to support your argument. You haven't explained why 1st Corinthians is out of context, but if you don't like that scripture I'll give you another. 

1 Timothy 2:11-15

Also 1 Timothy 3:1-5 .... This one applies to both the role of women and homesexuality. In order to be a leader in the church you must be a "husband of one wife" not a "wife of one husband" or a "husband of one husband." A "husband of one WIFE."

Women are allowed to be ministers. Ministers are people who spread the word to non believers. But they are NOT allowed to be leaders in the congregation. There is simply no way you can rationalize this one based on 1 Timothy 2:11-15 but I would love to see you try.

As for the verse in Romans. I don't know what bible your reading but in every bible I've ever seen it clearly references gay sex as shameful. If Paul simply wanted to say that lust was shameful then he could've simply said that. He goes out of his way to specifically mention lesbian and homosexual sex.

Principles did not change in the new testament. God's principles do NOT change. If you didn't condone homosexuality in the old testament then why would he condone it in the new testament. All scriptures are STILL inspired by God. That is not to say that homosexuals are condemned, but the act of homosexuality IS. No matter how much some people would like to rewrite the bible there is no way around that fact.

yes the bible makes it very clear that men are supposed to be the leader of the household, etc. but as im sure you know men are supposed to be respectful submisive and protective of women


The household and the congregation. Absolutely. I'm not suggesting that the bible degrades women. Women have their role just as men have their role. Each has responsibilities, but in our modern society some so called progressives have chosen to blur the lines between males and females in the church. I'm simply pointing out the flaws in most modern christianity.



sabby_e17 said:
huaxiong90 said:

Now as far as religions/cults that I don't understand: I can't say I understand the non-Sunni sects of Islam. 

I tend to figure that Sunnis themselves don't fully understand what Sunnism is. Most Sunnis I know and have spoken to merely follow orders from their scholars or the "Ulema" and consider it correct and they lash out against other sects (Shias, Ahmadis, Ibadis, Sufis - this one isn't even a sect) considering them kaafirs (disbelievers).

Sad but true. This is the problem with Muslims today. They don't educate themselves, they just listen blindly to their clerics, and pray for the sake of it, thinking that's enough. Note, however, that is mainly applies to people who were born in Muslim families.

But my criticism of the other sects and the Sufi practice stems from both interaction with people of other sects and offshoots, as well as personal studying of my own.

Now that's not to say I'm completely against the other sects, or that I judge people based on the sect they follow...I learned a long time ago that a true friend is a true friend, regardless of what religion he/she follows.



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wilco said:


The household and the congregation. Absolutely. I'm not suggesting that the bible degrades women. Women have their role just as men have their role. Each has responsibilities, but in our modern society some so called progressives have chosen to blur the lines between males and females in the church. I'm simply pointing out the flaws in most modern christianity.

In christianity women were actually considered to be inferior to men. Don't know about actual scriptures, but if you read works of some notable christian philosophers, you'll see that they considered animal excrements above women. The reason why the lines have blurred in churches today is because churches don't wanna alianate people (youcan't get away with treating women as being inferior nowadays).



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

There's a cult group of Baptists where I live. No, really. I think they are Radical Baptists. I mean, I'm Christian (Catholic), and the way that they hold Christianity 'close to their hearts' sickens me. I go to a singles group at this church so I can make new friends, but oh crap, is it crazy there...

1) They carry around a Bible in their hands ALL the time. It's like a part of own clothing. They read out of the Bible like it has the Davinci Code within each verse; it took them 30 minutes to disect 5 lines in the Bible, and that each word has a meaning or translations. That's some pretty hardcore stuff, if you are into wasting time. Us Catholics do read the Bible, but we read the scriptures, acknowledge the teachings and then apply them to our lives. Plus the Bibles at this church have text boxes (with stuff like, "did you know?" or "translations") to further disect each verse.

2) The Youth Minister there is crazy. I told him that I dated a Muslim girl for 2 months a few years ago, and he bad-mouthed me saying that I was dating a Satanic person. He believes that every other religion out there is false and evil, including Islam. I told him that when I was at Reshina's house (my ex), I read the Qu'ran and it was interesting (it was in English text), and as another forum user on VGChartz who is Muslim had said (and he was right) that both the New Testemant and Old Testemant are within the Qu'ran, and that Jesus and Mary are important figures. This Radical told me to stop talking because it was making me less Christian (is that even possible)? I mean, I read about other religions and all, and they are very interesting. This jerk needs to broaden his tastes and read about other cultures. So the Youth Minister acts like a selfish and immature brat, but the SAD THING is that he is married to a nice young woman and has a son (only 1 or 2), and I feel sorry that his wife and child have to put up with him...

On top of that, IF this is a SINGLES GROUP, there is hardly any time for people to socialize. When I get there (much earlier than when their 'services' start), there is 5-10 minutes of socializing time, then splitting off into groups for a prayer session, praise and worship songs (holy crap, those songs are so stupid; they sound like a bunch of whiny ass-kissers; Justin Bieber has better lyrics than what they sing), and then Bible reading for 45 minutes. Then it is 10 PM when the scripture reading is done, AND it's a school night. WTF is wrong with these people??

And their Sunday services are so weird, too. They have these classrooms that are setup the same way as their 'singles group,' because all they do in there is read out of the Bible, too, and then rant for 30 minutes. Then after that is done, they go into their 'temple' (I thought it would be a church, but their 'church' is inside a gymnasium!) for a TWO HOUR scripture-reading mass. They have like 5 preachers on stage (dressed up in business suits; it seems like they are trying to sell and convince people to convert), with a chorus in the background dressed up in some velvet-like robes singing praise and worship songs, and sometimes Christian rock or pop songs (it's the same song they sing on their singles group night, only it sounds like they want to rape Christ). Then one preacher stands up and starts ranting with a Bible in hand, while the other preachers sit in reclining chairs with a telephone on a stand next to them (WTF is the telephone for?; my dad said it was the Hotline to God lmao). The preacher standing up will start flailing his arms about and start speaking in tongues. People in the audience are yelling, "Halleluia! Praise God!"

I've only been to one of their 'masses' once, and it scared the fuck outta me. I'm glad I'm Catholic.

Plus, I've shown that Youth Minister these pictures of this Catholic shrine I went to up in Michigan, US, called Cross In the Woods. He blatantly told me off by saying, "You Catholics do the weirdest things, and I think that's a stupid place to have a church or a holy place." Well, if HE thinks so, what do other forum users think of these 3 pictures I have of this place? Is this guy just plain stupid and ignorant? I think so. I feel a sense of serenity when I was at this place, and I wish I could live in this area in Michigan...



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@Naruku_Diabolos:

He believes that every other religion out there is false and evil, including Islam.

Going by my experience with fundementalist eastern orthodox people here in Romania, I'm pretty sure that he thinks that about catholicism also, he just won't tell it to your face.

And I think the reason why they don't have fancier churches is because protestants generally don't believe that you need to build palaces for god (they see it as part of the corruption of the Catholic Church). The Bible is also much more important for them, and is the only think that's important.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

sapphi_snake said:
Mr Khan said:
@ Sapphi: Mormonism is indeed an odd one, founded by Joseph Smith who claimed to find sacred texts in his hometown, which only he could read, and which claimed that when Jesus walked the earth after his resurrection, he came to America and visited the Indians, who were supposed to be white people at the time and only evolved into "red" indians later

Really there's not much wrong with Mormonism, at least since they've disavowed polygamy. They're a clean people that value hard work and sobriety, though their views on certain social liberties can be backwards as with many devoutly religious

The Amish are a derivative of Calvinism who believe that man's excessive materialism distracts us from what is truly important, and thus live in small communal societies, disavowing ownership and materialism. Again, they're a good group of people on the whole aside from social liberties (and they're the best to hire if you live near them like i do and have carpentry you need done)

Scientology belongs where it was conceived: in a Sci-Fi novel. It's a neat mythology, but downright mind-boggling to apply to reality...

Thanks for explaining it. I remember watching Angels in America and there being something in Mormonism about wrestling angels. Is there actually such a thing in the religion's mythos?

I still haven't understood what scientolgy is about, other than it being something made up by a sci fi writer. The fact that people actually believe it, even though it's clearly a product of fiction (though even the Mormonism story is hard to swallow), kinda makes me lose my faith in humanity.

they are both good examples that people actually believe in ANYTHING under the right circumstances.

the secret is to to keep them from thinking for themselves and asking questions



“It appeared that there had even been demonstrations to thank Big Brother for raising the chocolate ration to twenty grams a week. And only yesterday, he reflected, it had been announced that the ration was to be reduced to twenty grams a week. Was it possible that they could swallow that, after only twenty-four hours? Yes, they swallowed it.”

- George Orwell, ‘1984’

snakenobi said:

i do not understand poor people

they think equality should be there but at the same time they say people who work hard for a better life and have money should pay for their sorry asses,what kind of equality is that

also slaves crying that other people made their life in misery,they did they even submit to slavery in the first place.they should blame their fore-fathers,themselves and their own people

 

 

i also don't believe in relgion which say GOD will come and intervene their lives so that they can live better

GOD gave us life,thats great as it is.if we still can't do anything with it and expect help,its pathetic

to random for me to put together.



huaxiong90 said:

You're correct in most parts, but some things need to be cleared up:

- It's actually stated in the Qur'an to dress modestly and cover up places that would provoke harassment (people are more lenient on the covering of the face since they don't pay as much attention to it as they do the hair and body). And realistically, covering the body/not dressing loosely prevents/reduces the likeliness of the woman becoming a target. 

- Stoning, in the Hadith, is the punishment for adultery, and their means of repentance. And this can only be carried out if there are enough witnesses to testify against them. However, its employment as capital punishment is usually used for cheating husbands and the lady he had an affair with. Now as for pre-marital sex, while some societies choose to still employ capital punishment, it's usually punished by 100 lashes.

It can be forgiven, but supposedly the only way to fully repent from them is to accept the consequences as per the Hadith. However, I'm gonna read more into this.

- The countries you mentioned in which the women are mistreated are also strict authoritarian regimes that restricts human rights in general, and the scapegoat for the rule is Sharia law.

- About the Palestine-Israel conflict: There were never (serious) tensions until the British Mandate. And it's not just what you mentioned, there's the Israeli regime's other interior and foreign policies in regards to the Palestinians and neighboring countries, amongst many other things. But that's a complex issue that can't be described here.

- Just FYI Dubai and Abu Dhabi are part of one country called the UAE (United Arab Emirates). But personally, I think Muslim countries should take notes from Malaysia, especially under Mahathir Mohamad, Turkey ever since Erdogan came (though the secularists dislike him, or at least his religious policies), and Qatar. Those are what I call progressive countries in the Islamic world.

Yeah I was going to add the clothing part, but I felt it was unnecessary for what that guy was asking. But stoning is not said or implied in the Quran; isn't the Hadith the words of the prophet and Aisha? Muslims don't have to follow everything said in the Hadith. And i know Dubai and Abu Dhabi are part of the same country (I've been there) but they're both different states with their own leaders and they have different economies too. I always get confused about the UAE, but whatever >_>



sapphi_snake said:
wilco said:


The household and the congregation. Absolutely. I'm not suggesting that the bible degrades women. Women have their role just as men have their role. Each has responsibilities, but in our modern society some so called progressives have chosen to blur the lines between males and females in the church. I'm simply pointing out the flaws in most modern christianity.

In christianity women were actually considered to be inferior to men. Don't know about actual scriptures, but if you read works of some notable christian philosophers, you'll see that they considered animal excrements above women. The reason why the lines have blurred in churches today is because churches don't wanna alianate people (youcan't get away with treating women as being inferior nowadays).

if any christian philosophers said that stuff they werent at all Christians, and didnt at all use the bible for any grounding of their opinions. the bible makes it very clear that women arent inferior to men. but they do have different roles