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Forums - General - Why renewable energy won't work.

Kasz216 said:
Troll_Whisperer said:
Kasz216 said:
Troll_Whisperer said:
 

There's no price for human life.

Even without those it's a positive balance.

Use common sense.

If it was a positive balance it wouldn't need subsidies... because the electircity would be cheaper...

and less people die in Nuclear related accidents and uranium mining then mining accidents related to Solar and Turbine power.

Wouldn't it be still be cheaper than fuel in the long run? Not initially of course.

About nuclear: one screw up in history is enough to fuck up really badly and that's enough for me. Japan was close.

Anyway, I don't think we'll agree here, and I have to go dinner. Let's leave the conversation here?

 

I have to disagree.  You seem to be just trying to gracefully back out of an issue you backed yourself in.  Afterall "There is no price for human life."

including cherynobal far less people die per year.  Do you know how many people are expected to die due to chernobyl?

4,050 or so.

Do you know how many people died due to chernobyl so far?

50.

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2005/pr38/en/index.html

 

How many people do you think die each year falling off roofs installing solar panels?  Or mining the ore that is needed to make solar panels.

Sigh.

http://cricket.biol.sc.edu/chernobyl/papers/TORCH.pdf

30,000 to 60,000 deaths. That's also in Wikipedia, check the Chernobyl disaster article.

I'm not backing up. We can cherry pick whatever information and there's going to be plenty of different accounts. The ones in Wikipedia are the ones I'm using.

Also, as I said, ONE fuck up in ALL history can have terrible consequences. How many people die falling from wind turbines? Even it was many, that can be prevented right? So the solution would be having better security measures.

Many people also die mining the fuel needed for power plants I assume.

My girlfriend's granparents live close to the Fukushima nuclear power station and you don't know what the area and its peole have gone through.

And what to do with nuclear waste? It will remain radioactive for MILLIONS of years? Who says future generations will have the ability to maintain that (increasing) waste under control? It's just a gamble.



No troll is too much for me to handle. I rehabilitate trolls, I train people. I am the Troll Whisperer.

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sapphi_snake said:

@mrstickball:

It's not just laws that benefit one company over another, but laws that benefit companies over consumers as well. Where do you think all of the anti-litigious propaganda comes from? Big corporations, who spread misinformation in order to cheat consumers out of their rights. They actually fool consumers into lobbying their own rights away.

And that is why I said the government needs to be available to ensure that contracts are adhered to, and if companies lie to consumers, they are made to pay for it. 

If the company ends up being the only one on the market (as is the dream of most capitalist business owners), they'll essentially be able to do whatever they want within an unregulated market (not to mention tha the lack of competition will lead to poor quality products at higher prices). The only way to maintain competition is to have a regulated market, else at one point you'll have companies eliminating their competition based on their resources (buying them out, having huge advertising campaigns that eclipse the competition), not on the quality of their products/services.

Care to give some examples of this happening? I'd like some examples of singular companies that maintain a monopoly for a significant amount of time with no interference from any other company. 

You are aware that there's no socialism in Romania, no? Socialism, and the whole left wing for that manner, has pretty much disappeared from Romania since the fall of the Communist regime (doesn't surprise me., as Romanian's have been typically supporters of right wing conservative ideals, and were more sympathetic to the Nazis rather than the Communists).  Everything's been privatized. I'm not sure there are any significant regulations to the market. Laws meant to protect the consumer are useless. Health care isn't free etc.

You had ~50 years of communism. That was my point. Comparatively, many places didn't have the said 50 years of communism and have fared much better.

Of the countries you mentione, I'm quite sure New Zealand is much more socialist than Romania is. Plus, deregulation didn't reallz helo Iceland, no?

According to virtually any economic freedom score, you are wrong. Heritage's Freedom Index puts Romania at #65, and New Zealand at #4 in terms of overall economic freedom. Although Romania is certainly improving.

Also, I had no ideea that the US has half the population of Romania.

Ohio. The state I live in. I wanted to pick a state that is roughly analogous to Romania (we have about the same size/population density)





Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

Troll_Whisperer said:
Kasz216 said:
Troll_Whisperer said:
Kasz216 said:
Troll_Whisperer said:
 

There's no price for human life.

Even without those it's a positive balance.

Use common sense.

If it was a positive balance it wouldn't need subsidies... because the electircity would be cheaper...

and less people die in Nuclear related accidents and uranium mining then mining accidents related to Solar and Turbine power.

Wouldn't it be still be cheaper than fuel in the long run? Not initially of course.

About nuclear: one screw up in history is enough to fuck up really badly and that's enough for me. Japan was close.

Anyway, I don't think we'll agree here, and I have to go dinner. Let's leave the conversation here?

 

I have to disagree.  You seem to be just trying to gracefully back out of an issue you backed yourself in.  Afterall "There is no price for human life."

including cherynobal far less people die per year.  Do you know how many people are expected to die due to chernobyl?

4,050 or so.

Do you know how many people died due to chernobyl so far?

50.

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2005/pr38/en/index.html

 

How many people do you think die each year falling off roofs installing solar panels?  Or mining the ore that is needed to make solar panels.

Sigh.

http://cricket.biol.sc.edu/chernobyl/papers/TORCH.pdf

30,000 to 60,000 deaths. That's also in Wikipedia, check the Chernobyl disaster article.

I'm not backing up. We can cherry pick whatever information and there's going to be plenty of different accounts. The ones in Wikipedia are the ones I'm using.

Also, as I said, ONE fuck up in ALL history can have terrible consequences. How many people die falling from wind turbines? Even it was many, that can be prevented right? So the solution would be having better security measures.

Many people also die mining the fuel needed for power plants I assume.

My girlfriend's granparents live close to the Fukushima nuclear power station and you don't know what the area and its peole have gone through.

And what to do with nuclear waste? It will remain radioactive for MILLIONS of years? Who says future generations will have the ability to maintain that (increasing) waste under control? It's just a gamble.

Except... if you'll notice.  There estimate is based off of radiation effects being supralinear which they themselves admit is not what scientists currently believe to be the case.  They're basic premise is "Things could be a lot worse if we assume things are different from how so far scientific evidence points they are."

And no... basically nobody dies from Uranium mining.

Though you've entered in a personal element which shows why you are biased.

I might be against plane travel if I knew people who died in a plane crash even though statistically it's safer then driving a car.



Kasz216 said:
sapphi_snake said:

So, in other words: people don't think of what is best in the long run, and saving money is more important than having a planet to live on.


Well... that and most countries don't have the space to build power plants the size of Arizona... because there is no way to make much more efficent wind, solar and hydro plants because there is a very finite amount of energy put in one spot.


Photovoltaic energy is only about 25% efficient at the very top end at the moment, there are ways to make it much more efficient. In fact there are more efficiency gains to be had in solar than in any other form of energy as far as I can see.



Rath said:
Kasz216 said:
sapphi_snake said:

So, in other words: people don't think of what is best in the long run, and saving money is more important than having a planet to live on.


Well... that and most countries don't have the space to build power plants the size of Arizona... because there is no way to make much more efficent wind, solar and hydro plants because there is a very finite amount of energy put in one spot.

Photovoltaic energy is only about 25% efficient at the very top end at the moment, there are ways to make it much more efficient. In fact there are more efficiency gains to be had in solar than in any other form of energy as far as I can see.

Except, even with great funding... breakthroughs have been extremly slow and may not come.

The one thing people seem to forget with research is that research is FAAAAR from a given.  Things in labratorys may never and often never are adopted in the mainstream world because there is no way to make it workable outside labs.

Plenty of other stuff just never gets developed.



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Kasz216 said:
Rath said:

Photovoltaic energy is only about 25% efficient at the very top end at the moment, there are ways to make it much more efficient. In fact there are more efficiency gains to be had in solar than in any other form of energy as far as I can see.

Except, even with great funding... breakthroughs have been extremly slow and may not come.

The one thing people seem to forget with research is that research is FAAAAR from a given.  Things in labratorys may never and often never are adopted in the mainstream world because there is no way to make it workable outside labs.

Plenty of other stuff just never gets developed.

There have been plenty of progressive gains in the practical efficiency of solar cells over the last decade or so. There will almost certainly continue to be gains.



Rath said:
Kasz216 said:
sapphi_snake said:

So, in other words: people don't think of what is best in the long run, and saving money is more important than having a planet to live on.


Well... that and most countries don't have the space to build power plants the size of Arizona... because there is no way to make much more efficent wind, solar and hydro plants because there is a very finite amount of energy put in one spot.


Photovoltaic energy is only about 25% efficient at the very top end at the moment, there are ways to make it much more efficient. In fact there are more efficiency gains to be had in solar than in any other form of energy as far as I can see.

Very true, which is why we shouldn't subsidize them. If we can truely reach incredible efficencies in solar PV, then we shouldn't invest now, but when they reach market acceptible levels. That way, your not wasting money. If you watched the Reason video I posted, there is a lot of money out there in private industry that is ready and willing to buy into Solar PV by the billions, if not hundred of billions.

The issue is that its just not ready for prime time yet. But at our current rate of improvement in cost per watt for solar PV, we should see the cost per KWH drop from $0.25 to about $0.10 by 2030. At that point, it is very reasonable to expect most energy companies to adopt solar. That is why the free market is so wonderful - it can adopt the technology very quickly if it is workable. If it isn't (which is always possible), then it will pursue another form of energy production.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

Rath said:
Kasz216 said:
Rath said:
 

Photovoltaic energy is only about 25% efficient at the very top end at the moment, there are ways to make it much more efficient. In fact there are more efficiency gains to be had in solar than in any other form of energy as far as I can see.

Except, even with great funding... breakthroughs have been extremly slow and may not come.

The one thing people seem to forget with research is that research is FAAAAR from a given.  Things in labratorys may never and often never are adopted in the mainstream world because there is no way to make it workable outside labs.

Plenty of other stuff just never gets developed.

There have been plenty of progressive gains in the practical efficiency of solar cells over the last decade or so. There will almost certainly continue to be gains.

Progressive gains always stop somewhere.  Outside which.  Doesn't government grants and subsidies then crowd out said technology and advancement?

Afterall, if the government is paying for 25% efficency to be affordable... why spend R&D to get to 35% when the government is just going to drop the subsidy as you advance?

Subsidies just lower the bar... it's like with the US and Ethanol.

All those Ethanol companies get subsidies, and they really don't do much research.  It's other companies that are working on other biofuel alternatives to beat it.

Ethanol is "good enough."



I'm not commenting on the current economics of PV, I'm just saying that all the people who claim that you can't reduce the amount of land needed because there is only a finite amount of power per area have missed the fact that at the moment we are not able to use all of that power per area.



Rath said:

I'm not commenting on the current economics of PV, I'm just saying that all the people who claim that you can't reduce the amount of land needed because there is only a finite amount of power per area have missed the fact that at the moment we are not able to use all of that power per area.


Fair enough we can't now however.

Whether we will or not... is unknown.  Be it 2030 or 2200.

Building solar plants now that will have to be completely torn down and replaced whenever we do figure it out (if we do) is just... unebelievably wastefull... and probably worse for the enviroment.

Afterall, that construction equipment runs on gasoline, as well the demolition equipment... and the matierals used to make the solar panels... are they recylclable?  I'm not sure... not all matierals are... and some that are only are so if that's kept in mind when built.

They're very rare so i'd be wasteful to use them up if they aren't.

Of course... we'd also need new battery technology as well... since we don't have enough resources on the planet to support enough batteries to support reneweble energies for cars... let alone all the other uses such matierals and batteries have and are needed for.

Not just a refining... but an outright all new battery.

 

Not sure what if anything would be the solution for cars.  At best one could hope for natural gas cars.  Which obviously still would have lots of emissions.