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Forums - General Discussion - VGC Mafia Round 29 -Grand Theft Auto 4 edition!

Final-Fan on 31 May 2011
Linkzmax said:

Hephaestos said:

I'll translate: proff is frustrated that he has no ground to ask for my ability to be random whereas he is confident that Stefl has not asked enough questions yet (FF Vette Me are the only possible targets... and vett is only on "who he targeted last night").

Stefl can only 'run a polygraph' on posts from today?

I would expect Stefl to be able to run tests on any statement players have posted, previous days not excepted.  But I guess it could hypothetically be different for ABC. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

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Final-Fan on 31 May 2011

I didn't vote you because I was cautious alright.  Town cautious.  I wasn't convinced the case against you was there, although I was desperate enough to end the day that at one point I was willing to vote you just to end the day, since it was possible you were scum after all. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

theprof00 on 31 May 2011
Linkzmax said:

YOU say there is a blocker. Nobody but the RB and possibly his scummate know that to be true. It's possible, but doubtful that scum will try to both block and kill Stefl.

You're narrowing of the pool seems fruitless when you pair it with "the confidence in alignment can switch at the drop of a hat. I can say, "GoW is confirmed townie because of x,y, and z". But then the next day, that all collapses when he says something fishy." I don't want to see every player pointing fingers at everyone else, but it's not a bad thing to have people focusing on different groups. Hopefully one(ideally two) suspect(s) will emerge as someone that the majority(or near-majority) agree is most suspicious and likely to be scum.

I disagree. I think mafia are going to have to use every resource at their disposal to make sure stefl isn't able to test someone.

GoW was just an example. I believe GoW is as town as it can get. However, if I discover new evidence that points the the previous confirmation evidence being invalid or null, then that can change things. I was just giving an example, and it seems I'm being taken too literally.

Another example would be stefl. Right now, based on the facts I have, he's pretty much obvtown. However, if I notice trends trends that may point to it being a fakeclaim from the start, then he'll be getting my vote. At the moment, I don't consider stefl a suspect. It is actually Heph's activity that is making me question stefl. If Heph flips, I have evidence of him undermining the idea that confirmed are never confirmed, I have statements like "don't trust me, trust stefl", and if something were to happen, like a cop claiming, that would pretty much seal it.

Right now, stefl is not a suspect, but if Heph flips scum, he will be heavily reviewed.



theprof00 on 31 May 2011
Linkzmax said:
theprof00 said:

don't forget that linkzmax implied that he might have a role other than lover as well. So, both ST and Linkz may have roles. Usually, in a treacherous lover format, ie; a mafia sibling, the town sibling has an important role. Therefore, even if the town side knows he is scum, he is willing to put it off until later because he will have to sacrifice an important town role as well.

As I see it, we probably have a doc a cop and a vig. Vette could be one, so could linkz, and either you or FF is the other. If you aren't one, and this is a decision that you'll have to make yourself, that would mean FF (linkz or st) and Vette are all power roles.

What is with everyone's insistence on there being a cop!? It's already been said that LD and cop will not exist together. The cop is barely hindered by being random'd through claiming, and it is quite probable that there is an actual kill-protection role to hopefully keep the cop alive for at least one more night. A cop claim would undoubtedly net at least one scum, so there's no reason for the cop not to have come out when requested. Yet there's been no claim.

Obviously within that paragraph I agree there's a doc(or other protection) and I'd bet on another killing role outside of mafia, though I'm torn between vig and SK still.

What is the harm is assuming there is one? Why should the unconfirmed existence of an LD bar one? There IS a reason for the cop NOT to claim, and that it because I KNOW there is a blocker. As a silver lining, it would probably keep me alive for a night, while the scum pick their targets, AND it will net us a semi-confirmed townie (only confirmed when cop flips), so personally, I'd be for a cop claiming, BUT the mafia do have a chance at preventing both.

Also, I think only you've requested one, and not many trust you, so put two and two together.

Well, an SK must kill, right? Isn't that your slogan? lack of balance, etc etc ?(not to be rude)



theprof00 on 01 June 2011
Linkzmax said:

I think you're confused on the first part. Wonk and ABC were both scum their first games, and I believe it was Wonk that asked everyone not to talk about earlier games.

As for the second part, I apologize for not having as much time this game as last, but I doubt I'd have cleared many players this time around even if I did. Last game I had the benefit of KNOWing my 'partner' was a townie, whereas this time I only have strong reasoning to THINK that is the case. I had also got lucky and tried to track a role that HAD to be town, but no such luck here. Finally, I was able to tarnish myself a bit, yet I did more mud-flinging day one that was revealing later on. This time around I made as big a scene as one can make without actually being lynched, and while my analysis of that scene did turn up at least one scum, there's bound to be less connections there because nobody felt pressured to answer anything with my neck looking to be noosed.

That being said, beyond the strong reasoning to THINK ST is town, I'm still stuck on ABC practically confirming Vette. His vote didn't really match his stated stance on day one; however, the attitude I get from him reminds me of the game where he was vehemently opposed to anonymous replacements. Stefl is as close to confirmed townie(barring a cop claim) as we're likely to get and that's regardless of Heph's alignment.

I do not like a Heph lynch today, because even if he is scum power(Tracker or role cop) then it is possible to marginalize him to a mafia goon. On the other hand, if he really is town power then he forces scum to decide whether to block the likely doc-targeted Stefl and kill Heph, who seems to rank pretty high on quite a few people's suspect lists, or gamble some other action.

I didn't like your lynch because I thought you were lying about being vanilla, but if that's the truth than at the very least you're a better lynch than Vette(Seeing as I believe he's town and wouldn't vote to lynch him anyway) in order to confirm the existence of an RB. I STILL don't think that's a good idea though, and would rather lynch someone else.

That leaves GOW and FF. GOW was my 'if there's 3 scum on my lynch, he's one of them' idea, but otherwise I don't recall anything that stood out as scummy to me. For FF it's the opposite, his distancing from my lynch gave me cause to wonder if he was just being careful scum. I'm still going to reread everything and make a better case there. Or if the reread makes me think townie instead, I'll look into GOW.

You are confused. If I had the patience to do it, I'd find it. The person that said it was clean.

Ok, I understand that. I did notice that you found wild, though it wouldn't be unexpected to throw him under the bus either. I don't recall any strong push toward wildvine from you, even when I initiated a vote for him, and another joined me.

I think it's a mistake to decide between people simply because they're not in your "don't want to kill today" list. But please do read them anyhow.



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theprof00 on 01 June 2011
Hephaestos said:
theprof00 said:
Hephaestos said:

(all that above is like the first 100 posts of the day till the stefl is LD post.... rest of the day has been prof asking me to paraphrase 100 times the flavor, introducing the RB theory and peopel casting votes arround (I voted for everyone but the siblings if I recall ^^)).


yes because every paraphrase that you've given me is just so obviously lie detector. So so obvious. I can't understand how you didn't get it.

such honnesty ^^

theprof00 said:

Actually my guess was that stefl was an amnesiac cop, and heph was a tracker, and that stefl had investigated ToS while Heph followed stefl and the results were sent randomly to Heph, hence why he said, "I doubt I'll get any other flavor".

The big piece of this puzzle that is still missing is why Heph thinks he won't get any flavor later, and why the flavor that he gotmade him think lie detector. "stefl thinks trucks asks too many questions" doesn't come off to me as lie detector, and doesn't even come off as mafia. If I were to read that in my pm, I would think trucks is a cop or some kind of investigator.

I could've sworn that you meant to say trucks thinks stefl asks to many questions, at the time when I compiled all your hints. I apologize then. However, in that italicized paraphrase that you wrote, the one saying:
Lie to stefl and he'll know. He asked Trucks his alignment, and at dawn, he knew

 it doesn't read like those other paraphrases at all, and made me think that your first ones should have said, "trucks thinks stefl asks too many questions. The way your first paraphrases came out, it didn't make sense at all given your "ticking" to the truth. If they did indeed say stefl thinks trucks asks too many questions, then stefl's claim of knowing trucks alignment before day shouldn't have made you think lie detector.

This is one of the reasons I keep asking for an accurate paraphrase, because they are either poorly worded, or don't logically follow your statements.



theprof00 on 01 June 2011
Linkzmax said:
theprof00 said:
Hephaestos said:
theprof00 said:

1. You forget that the confidence in alignment can switch at the drop of a hat. I can say, "GoW is confirmed townie because of x,y, and z". But then the next day, that all collapses when he says something fishy.

nice definition of confirmed townie.....

LOL Heph, you are just asking repeatedly for suspicion.

NO TOWNIE IS EVER CONFIRMED. So stop undermining me. Obvtown means as close as you can get, but things always change. Supericial arguments are all you have at this point, with a superficial vote.

Sorry prof, I'm with Heph on this one. YOU said "confirmed townie" and I would say confirmed townies do exist, though they are few and far between. 'obvtown', which does not equal confirmed townie, is more common and the read on them can change with any slip, but it isn't what you said.


in the original post I never meant to say confirmed townie as in actually confirmed confirmed. Half the confirmations in the game never pass my stringent requirements. Like I said earlier, if there was a role that made the mod fakeclaim for a player, I'd say wonk had it. :P

What I meant was something as close to confirmed as possible, without being cop-level confirmation. Like I explained in a post above, to me GoW is town. Barring some unforseen evidence pointing to a high level manipulation, he's my "confirmed/obvtown".

Just want to clear that up.



Final-Fan on 01 June 2011

@ prof:  I don't believe TWO mafia would claim investigative roles in one game, that's just insanity.  Heph flipping scum would, if anything, reinforce my belief that Stefl is legit.  Although I guess it could hypothetically have been set up in advance by them, to try to ... out the real cop ... or something?  But I would put that at very, very low probability. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

theprof00 on 01 June 2011
Final-Fan said:

@ prof:  I don't believe TWO mafia would claim investigative roles in one game, that's just insanity.  Heph flipping scum would, if anything, reinforce my belief that Stefl is legit.  Although I guess it could hypothetically have been set up in advance by them, to try to ... out the real cop ... or something?  But I would put that at very, very low probability. 

I wouldn't call it a stunt to out a cop. I'd call it a stunt to confirm a mafia.

Like I said, I'm pretty sure stefl is town. If heph flips mafia though, I will heavily look at stefl and hephs relationship.



GodOfWar_3ever on 01 June 2011
Final-Fan said:

I didn't vote you because I was cautious alright.  Town cautious.  I wasn't convinced the case against you was there, although I was desperate enough to end the day that at one point I was willing to vote you just to end the day, since it was possible you were scum after all. 

You could've been mafia distancing yourself from a mislynch. And like zarx, you too were impatient to get to the night then (wanting to vote for someone just to end the day and being one of the first people to vote for a time limit on day one). Do you have jury duty too ?

Prof, thoughts on Vette ?

Where is Silver-Tiger ? His absence and excuses is making me think of him...probably more than I need to.

Also, why do you guys think the cop should come out ? A Lie detector, role cop/tracker and vanilla cop doesn't look to farfetched to me cause there was a mafia hider, and it would create doubt among the town. Maybe the cop has some traits to him that further balances the equation. He might be a miller, or could use his power every other day or something ? A cop that looks bad in the town's eyes would be likely to appear in GTA, with its history of crooked police officers I guess like Francis McReary in GTA IV (in the series, Tenpenny in San Andreas...though he was just fucking evil)..