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Forums - Sony Discussion - Finland: consumer board says Sony should pay dude €100 for OtherOS removal

Kudistos Megistos said:
kitler53 said:

well, i can tell you this.  sony will never make the mistake of giving consumers a device with extra features ever again if the courts take this consideration seriously.  

Don't worry.

If Sony stop adding features to their consoles becase they find it too hard to obey the law, we can always buy different consoles. Or play on the PC.

Sony, in its arrogance, seems to forget that it is they who rely on the customers, not the other way around.

I forsee Sony coming last in the next generation too, if they don't start respecting their customers more.

He isnt right, but please lets place thing in perspective.  All company take bad decision at some time, its not a reason to nitpick on those to make a global statement. Particularly considering that Linux is one of the least use feature of the PS3. Add to that that its possible to keep Linux unless you upgrade to the new firmware update. With both condition you get an issue affecting a very very low percentage of the customer (surely less then 1% but I dont have an exact value).

Now, keep it mind it was remove because it was proved to be an hole for pirating. So, the result you get is a situation that is greatly exagerate by a certain vocal minority who probably arent affected to begin with. With that said, I understand that the few legit user using Linux as well as new game requiring new firmware update want some kind of compensation, and they should have it...



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Kudistos Megistos said:

"The CCB does not have the power to enforce its ruling, but the opinion of the CCB in Finland is considered by the courts in a dispute. "

What exactly does "is considered" mean? Does it mean the court merely pays lip-service to acknowledging their arguments? Or do they have real influence.

In any case, it's nice to see a precedent has been set. Sony clearly sold their console under the understanding that buyers would be able to use Linux and also use PSN. They then forced their customers to give up the ability to do one of these things, so there's no doubt that Sony acted illegally and that the EULA doesn't give them a leg to stand on. 

How many fat PS3s did they sell? €100 x 30million (or whatever) is a lot of money!

It's quite uncommon in Finland that comppanies doesn't obey CCB rulings and CCB statement has really heavy influence in court. CCB has right to run case to court as class action suit, if it rulings aren't followed and then individual consumers doesn't need to take Sony or/and retailers to court to get refund. This ruling includes only those PS3 consoles, which have been sold before removing other OS feature from feature list (2007 - 2010) .



Kudistos Megistos said:
kitler53 said:

well, i can tell you this.  sony will never make the mistake of giving consumers a device with extra features ever again if the courts take this consideration seriously.  

Don't worry.

If Sony stop adding features to their consoles becase they find it too hard to obey the law, we can always buy different consoles. Or play on the PC.

Sony, in its arrogance, seems to forget that it is they who rely on the customers, not the other way around.

I forsee Sony coming last in the next generation too, if they don't start respecting their customers more.

lulz -- sony has way more respect for their customers right now than nintendo or ms.  remember, if hackers would just have not breached the ps3's security you'd still have the other OS feature that nintendo and ms wouldn't even give you as an option.  when you give sony trouble for giving out gifts -- don't expect any more gifts.  

maybe next time sony will do overpriced propriety hard drives like ms ...  or take away the internet browser ... or make you pay for online ... or not let you play bluray/dvds ... or not let you make your own backgrounds ...

yeah i'm sorry -- sony has been way better to consumers thank you very much.



Icyedge said:

He isnt right, but please lets place thing in perspective.  All company take bad decision at some time, its not a reason to nitpick on those to make a global statement. Particularly considering that Linux is one of the least use feature of the PS3. Add to that that its possible to keep Linux unless you upgrade to the new firmware update. With both condition you get an issue affecting a very very low percentage of the customer (surely less then 1% but I dont have an exact value).

Linux might not have been used by most people, but it was still an advertised feature. Sony sold the fat PS3 under the understanding that the PS3 would be able to run Linux and also access PSN. Now, it can't do these things; it can only do one. The owners of the PS3 have lost the ability to do one of the things they paid for.

Now, keep it mind it was remove because it was proved to be an hole for pirating. 

But look at what has happened. People have now found a way to jailbreak the PS3 without using Linux. Previously, Sony had a security hole on its hands.

Now, it has a security hole, potential lawsuits and angry customers who have lost one of the functions of their PS3. Sony would have been far better off leaving Linux alone.

kitler53 said:

lulz -- sony has way more respect for their customers right now than nintendo or ms.  remember, if hackers would just have not breached the ps3's security you'd still have the other OS feature that nintendo and ms wouldn't even give you as an option.  when you give sony trouble for giving out gifts -- don't expect any more gifts.  

maybe next time sony will do overpriced propriety hard drives like ms ...  or take away the internet browser ... or make you pay for online ... or not let you play bluray/dvds ... or not let you make your own backgrounds ...

yeah i'm sorry -- sony has been way better to consumers thank you very much.

The last time I checked, infringing their customers rights wasn't considered very respectful.

And as I said, Sony is only shooting itself in the foot if it tries to punish honest gamers because of its own security failures and paranoia about piracy. It will keep on losing market share.



Kudistos Megistos said:
Icyedge said:

This is reasonable. With that said, im pretty sure a formal demand of 100$ to Sony would have worked without the trouble of going to court.

It would, but that isn't the point of the case.

The point is for Sony to be found in breach of consumer rights laws and for a precedent to be set.

It also sends out a message that big companies aren't above the law.

This decision is a precedent. Anyway the point of the case is to have the legit users of Linux get compensated, that is whats important.



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Kudistos Megistos said:

 

"Linux might not have been used by most people, but it was still an advertised feature. Sony sold the fat PS3 under the understanding that the PS3 would be able to run Linux and also access PSN. Now, it can't do these things; it can only do one. The owners of the PS3 have lost the ability to do one of the things they paid for."

Agreed, thats why im saying Linux users should be compensated.

 

"But look at what has happened. People have now found a way to jailbreak the PS3 without using Linux. Previously, Sony had a security hole on its hands."

You cannot start with the affirmative they knew it would get hack nonetheless. Unless you have a proof that is. Personally, im pretty sure that if they knew it would get hack nonetheless they wouldnt have took decision.

 

Now, it has a security hole, potential lawsuits and angry customers who have lost one of the functions of their PS3. Sony would have been far better off leaving Linux alone.

Yes, sure, when we see the final result with the PS3 hacked anyway they shouldnt have remove Linux. But they did, now the important is that the people who are affected by it get a reasonble compensation.





Kudistos Megistos said:
Icyedge said:

He isnt right, but please lets place thing in perspective.  All company take bad decision at some time, its not a reason to nitpick on those to make a global statement. Particularly considering that Linux is one of the least use feature of the PS3. Add to that that its possible to keep Linux unless you upgrade to the new firmware update. With both condition you get an issue affecting a very very low percentage of the customer (surely less then 1% but I dont have an exact value).

Linux might not have been used by most people, but it was still an advertised feature. Sony sold the fat PS3 under the understanding that the PS3 would be able to run Linux and also access PSN. Now, it can't do these things; it can only do one. The owners of the PS3 have lost the ability to do one of the things they paid for.

Now, keep it mind it was remove because it was proved to be an hole for pirating. 

But look at what has happened. People have now found a way to jailbreak the PS3 without using Linux. Previously, Sony had a security hole on its hands.

Now, it has a security hole, potential lawsuits and angry customers who have lost one of the functions of their PS3. Sony would have been far better off leaving Linux alone.

kitler53 said:

lulz -- sony has way more respect for their customers right now than nintendo or ms.  remember, if hackers would just have not breached the ps3's security you'd still have the other OS feature that nintendo and ms wouldn't even give you as an option.  when you give sony trouble for giving out gifts -- don't expect any more gifts.  

maybe next time sony will do overpriced propriety hard drives like ms ...  or take away the internet browser ... or make you pay for online ... or not let you play bluray/dvds ... or not let you make your own backgrounds ...

yeah i'm sorry -- sony has been way better to consumers thank you very much.

 

The last time I checked, infringing their customers rights wasn't considered very respectful.

And as I said, Sony is only shooting itself in the foot if it tries to punish honest gamers because of its own security failures and paranoia about piracy. It will keep on losing market share.

 

last time i checked piracy wasn't considered very respectful.  you know full well that the option to install linux wasn't targeted at the average consumer ... it was an olive branch to the homebrewers.  that's why a majority of the poster on this site don't give a shit about loosing other OS and why the mainstream consumer cares dramatically less ... hell, most of them don't even know what the feature is.  

other os was a gift to the homebrewers.  a portion of the homebrew community gave sony the finger by finding an exploit that allowed them to breach the security.  don't forget for one second that what sony did was a response to the actions of the homebrewer community.  and don't expect sony to ever be so nice to you again.  you guys fucked up, next gen you won't be able to complain about loosing a feature cause you'll never have it.



Kudistos Megistos said:
Icyedge said:

He isnt right, but please lets place thing in perspective.  All company take bad decision at some time, its not a reason to nitpick on those to make a global statement. Particularly considering that Linux is one of the least use feature of the PS3. Add to that that its possible to keep Linux unless you upgrade to the new firmware update. With both condition you get an issue affecting a very very low percentage of the customer (surely less then 1% but I dont have an exact value).

Linux might not have been used by most people, but it was still an advertised feature. Sony sold the fat PS3 under the understanding that the PS3 would be able to run Linux and also access PSN. Now, it can't do these things; it can only do one. The owners of the PS3 have lost the ability to do one of the things they paid for.

Now, keep it mind it was remove because it was proved to be an hole for pirating. 

But look at what has happened. People have now found a way to jailbreak the PS3 without using Linux. Previously, Sony had a security hole on its hands.

Now, it has a security hole, potential lawsuits and angry customers who have lost one of the functions of their PS3. Sony would have been far better off leaving Linux alone.

kitler53 said:

lulz -- sony has way more respect for their customers right now than nintendo or ms.  remember, if hackers would just have not breached the ps3's security you'd still have the other OS feature that nintendo and ms wouldn't even give you as an option.  when you give sony trouble for giving out gifts -- don't expect any more gifts.  

maybe next time sony will do overpriced propriety hard drives like ms ...  or take away the internet browser ... or make you pay for online ... or not let you play bluray/dvds ... or not let you make your own backgrounds ...

yeah i'm sorry -- sony has been way better to consumers thank you very much.

 

The last time I checked, infringing their customers rights wasn't considered very respectful.

And as I said, Sony is only shooting itself in the foot if it tries to punish honest gamers because of its own security failures and paranoia about piracy. It will keep on losing market share.

I agree, claiming Sony has more respect for customers than MS or Nintendo has no merit.  MS and Nintendo did not  list another OS as a selling point for their system. Sony did. They also offered free online play as well, it was not either or, it was for both.

Since the PS3 was hacked and has been hacked before and after the removal of Linux; it seems like removing it changed nothing. Having additional features that is paid for (they were not "gifts") does not mean a company has more respect for consumers. These items were all part of the advertised package for PS3. If someone purchased a PS3 for these featueres, and when these features were advertised as part of the system, then they have every right to file a grievance.



Kudistos Megistos said:
Icyedge said:

He isnt right, but please lets place thing in perspective.  All company take bad decision at some time, its not a reason to nitpick on those to make a global statement. Particularly considering that Linux is one of the least use feature of the PS3. Add to that that its possible to keep Linux unless you upgrade to the new firmware update. With both condition you get an issue affecting a very very low percentage of the customer (surely less then 1% but I dont have an exact value).

 

 

 

 

Linux might not have been used by most people, but it was still an advertised feature. Sony sold the fat PS3 under the understanding that the PS3 would be able to run Linux and also access PSN. Now, it can't do these things; it can only do one. The owners of the PS3 have lost the ability to do one of the things they paid for.

 

 

 

 

Now, keep it mind it was remove because it was proved to be an hole for pirating. 

 

 

 

 

But look at what has happened. People have now found a way to jailbreak the PS3 without using Linux. Previously, Sony had a security hole on its hands.

 

 

 

 

Now, it has a security hole, potential lawsuits and angry customers who have lost one of the functions of their PS3. Sony would have been far better off leaving Linux alone.

 

 

 

 

kitler53 said:

lulz -- sony has way more respect for their customers right now than nintendo or ms.  remember, if hackers would just have not breached the ps3's security you'd still have the other OS feature that nintendo and ms wouldn't even give you as an option.  when you give sony trouble for giving out gifts -- don't expect any more gifts.  

 

 

 

 

maybe next time sony will do overpriced propriety hard drives like ms ...  or take away the internet browser ... or make you pay for online ... or not let you play bluray/dvds ... or not let you make your own backgrounds ...

 

 

 

 

yeah i'm sorry -- sony has been way better to consumers thank you very much.

 

 

 

 

The last time I checked, infringing their customers rights wasn't considered very respectful.

 

 

 

 

And as I said, Sony is only shooting itself in the foot if it tries to punish honest gamers because of its own security failures and paranoia about piracy. It will keep on losing market share.

 

 

 

 

Or those people are shooting themselves in the foot by using a feature the wrong way, the piracy lovers are only making it worse for the TRUE homebrew people. They took it too far, and this is the result. This is something that goes both ways.

 

 

 

Sony: security failure/feature                  =    hackers: Hacking Skilzz going too far.

 

 

 

Sony: fear of piracy/hacks                         =  hackers: making piracy and hacking possible!

 

 

 

You can't have Sony's problems without the hackers, remove them and Sony's problems disappear. Hackers staying within bounds = keeping OtherOs, but its too late for that now. I feel bad for the people who just wanted their OtherOs function for something that didn't compromise any other party.

 

(Sidetalk on) 

 

And It could be just my eyes getting old, but I seem to see Sony gaining a bigger market share again. Despite their customer rights infringement. And how many of those ''honest'' gamers are really that honest? A lot of them, if not almost all of them are doing way worse things to other companies and gamers. Most ''honest'' gamers don't care about the OtherOS or actually agree with nullifying it, lets be honest here, how many people actually knew it existed before it got removed?  

 

 

The problem with these kind of things is that people only see the bad side of stuff, they removed a small function of the ps3, but people don't see the stuff they got for free AFTER buying their product. They nag more about a single feature being removed, than a bunch of new ones being put in.

(Sidetalk blabbering off) 

 

 

If sony needs to pay someone for removing a feature, then should they pay for getting new ones? The new one wasn't mentioned when they bought their ps3 either right, so Sony could just charge for it right? When the old ones are removed, aswell as when knew ones are putting in, you have to agree to the new users terms of the update. You can also choose to not agree to them and keep your OtherOS and old features, with the cost of not being to able to play the newest games.

 

 

Btw, did the mention of the OtherOS by sony include the promise that they could play the latest games without losing the OtherOS? Yes I agree it seems natural, but you should always doublecheck that before getting ripped of by a loophole.

 

 

 

 

 

People should really give the big three a break sometimes, they're not perfect, everyone can make a mistake. But instead of console wars we are getting the nag and sue wars. I actually like the console wars better, at least it made me lol sometimes.

EDIT: I would't mind if this dude got paid, but it wouldn't be fair to others...... And paying everyone(who really used it) back 100$, just wouldn't work in practice. And 100$ is just too much anyway.

 



Capulous said:

I agree, claiming Sony has more respect for customers than MS or Nintendo has no merit.  MS and Nintendo did not  list another OS as a selling point for their system. Sony did. They also offered free online play as well, it was not either or, it was for both.

Since the PS3 was hacked and has been hacked before and after the removal of Linux; it seems like removing it changed nothing. Having additional features that is paid for (they were not "gifts") does not mean a company has more respect for consumers. These items were all part of the advertised package for PS3. If someone purchased a PS3 for these featueres, and when these features were advertised as part of the system, then they have every right to file a grievance.


Just to correct the bolded part, you didnt use the correct argument, Ill explain. PSN requires a separate contract and agreement (its written on the box, manual, add, when you log ect), they dont has to sustain and internet service. Sony can even shut down the complete service if they want. Legally speaking you didnt pay for PSN on your PS3 purchase.

With that said, you just didnt use the right argument. New games on the market requires you to update the firmware, hence you need to choose between Linux and the ability to play new games, which isnt fair to the people using their PS3 for Linux and games. Playing game is the basic ability of the console. When you purchase a PS3, your paying for the ability to play future games as well as being able to keep the features being part of the PS3 purchase (in this case Linux). Hope you understand the nuance.