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Forums - General - Prove that possessing extreme wealth or being famous isn't mostly luck?

richardhutnik said:
HappySqurriel said:


You don't copy someone else's work to sell it as your own, you copy someone else's work to learn from it.

Sid Sackson is a very interesting case-study. After his death I read up on him because I remembed playing many of his games as a child. One of the things that 'bothered' me about his story is that he had the opportunity to be remarkably wealthy had he realized the opportunities he had. Had he applied his considerable knowledge and skill towards making videogames in the 1980s it is likely that his company would have become a dominant player on early platforms; instead, he focused on boardgames and VCR games and found himself in a shrinking market.

In many ways, Sid Sackson is like the many buggy companies in the early 1900s who continued to focus on buggies rather than the automobile.

There is NO guarantee Sid Sackson could of ever broken into the videogame business or had the understanding needed in that realm, to be successful.  The fact is that his skillset is in another area that is older, and in less demand.  I know this area, because it is where I have some talent and am fully away that top designers of boardgames make livings, and don't get rich.  Also the form of play is different to.  Videogames play different, and the skills are different.  NOW, with the casual game market being what it is, it would be more possible for the likes of Sid Sackson to of possibly made a difference.  But, that came along too late.  Thing about the 1980s also was it still wasn't that huge though.  It actually went through a crash in the early part, that had the toy industry feel videogames were a fad.  Nintendo had to do a lot, and catch some breaks, or the NES wouldn't of even taken off, as they wouldn't of found a way to get distributed in American markets. 

And speaking of Nintendo, their name means, "leave luck to heaven" (as per Wikipedia).  Considering they started out as a card company, it would make sense they would have this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Nintendo


There are no guarantees of anything in life, but not being guaranteed success is quite a bit different from success being based on luck.

As for the videogame market not being that big, an individual has the best opportunity for success when a market is developing. For the most part, the wealthiest people in the world tend to be those that recognized the potential of a market years/decades before most people; and they became one of the largest and most competitive companies in the market before people saw the value in it. And in many cases, had the individual not been involved in developing their company the market would have never developed in the first place.



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richardhutnik said:
Kasz216 said:
 

The financial markets got wiped out because of stupid people.

Not on Wal-street.

The derivitives market was based on the belief that there wouldnt be a nationwide housing bubble.  Which was seen as an impossibility because the factors that cause the ups and downs of housing markets are local events.

The government, brilliant as they were decided to centralize housing values via lending acts and lowering housing insurance.  This causes a nationwide bubble that busted.

A lot of smart people got out when Wallstreet crashesd too by the way.  Denmark and Norway, two of the smartest governments, made a killing.  As did a few other smart nations.

Also, it's not survivor bias.  If 20 people say "I have this great idea, and people will love it"  and they all follow the same steps and only one of them succeeds....

then they in fact were smarter and more perceptive, because they were the one who did have something everybody would want.  The scenario they were in was not random.

Survivor bias is when you survive because a genocidal mad man has 9 bullets and 10 people to shoot.

Peoples purchasing habits aren't so random.

First, if people who had nothing to do with the financial markets get killed by stupid people, like lose their jobs, exactly WHAT does that say about luck then?  Why would markets gets wiped out by stupidity if people are smart?  Aren't they smart enough to avoid disasters?

Second, if it is only stupid people who lose money, then what about Long-Term Capital Management?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-Term_Capital_Management

They were a bunch of idiots also?  No, they were individuals who presumed that their mathematical models were robust enough, and certain abnormal things won't happen.  I was also informed in another thread that NO ONE foresaw that the economic meltdown would happen.   Yet there were a few, not many, and then it was in hindsight they look smart, like Peter Schiff.

Also, nonsense on thinking people are brilliant and so on.  People's purchases are driven by emotion, and they are able to replicate over and over and over and over bubble conditions, even when the outcome is known, due to greed:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/body/mind-over-money.html

 

 Supposedly "smart" people do get wiped out.  They fail to see what is going on, and get caught up in an arms race of risk, that results in a lot crashing and burning.  Sure, look back and blame government, but it seems natural to risk too much, in case of things going bad. BUT when the going is good, it is up and up and up above the norm.

Individuals like Donald Trump are noted for doing this overleveraging, which has highs and lows WAY beyond what normal expected outcome should be:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump

2008 financial crisis

Trump has been caught in the 2008 financial crisis as sales for his Trump International Hotel and Tower in Chicago have been lagging and he failed to pay a $40m loan to Deutsche Bank in December.[35] Arguing that the crisis is an Act of God, he evoked a clause in the contract to not pay the loan and initiated a countersuit asserting his image has been damaged.[35] Deutsche Bank has in turn noted in court that 'Trump is no stranger to overdue debt' and that he has twice previously filed for bankruptcy with respect to his casino operations.[35]

On February 17, 2009 Trump Entertainment Resorts filed for Chapter 11 Bankruptcy; Trump having stated on February 13 that he would resign from the board.[36] Trump Entertainment Resorts has three properties in Atlantic City.

A) Again, it's not luck.  You are trying to apply a very overly broad term as luck.  The people who were wiped out in the financial crisis were NOT a random group of people.

 B) Your own quotes on Donald Trump specifically show why your Donald Trump quote doesnt count. "Deutsche Bank has in turn noted in court that 'Trump is no stranger to overdue debt' and that he has twice previously filed for bankruptcy with respect to his casino operations."  Trump very much overplays the risks and has a backup to get himself out of it.  Not really luck. 

C) Even if taken as luck, you are now showing again that luck mostly isn't why people are super rich, again going against the context of your arguement.  Afterall, you are saying "What about these smart people that would of been rich any oftherime who aren't rich in this very rare occasion."

D) This doesn't show luck for a simple reason that people aren't succeeding who shouldn't of been in other cases, it's just everybody who previously succeeded failed.



Kasz216 said:
richardhutnik said:
Kasz216 said:
 

The financial markets got wiped out because of stupid people.

Not on Wal-street.

The derivitives market was based on the belief that there wouldnt be a nationwide housing bubble.  Which was seen as an impossibility because the factors that cause the ups and downs of housing markets are local events.

The government, brilliant as they were decided to centralize housing values via lending acts and lowering housing insurance.  This causes a nationwide bubble that busted.

A lot of smart people got out when Wallstreet crashesd too by the way.  Denmark and Norway, two of the smartest governments, made a killing.  As did a few other smart nations.

Also, it's not survivor bias.  If 20 people say "I have this great idea, and people will love it"  and they all follow the same steps and only one of them succeeds....

then they in fact were smarter and more perceptive, because they were the one who did have something everybody would want.  The scenario they were in was not random.

Survivor bias is when you survive because a genocidal mad man has 9 bullets and 10 people to shoot.

Peoples purchasing habits aren't so random.

First, if people who had nothing to do with the financial markets get killed by stupid people, like lose their jobs, exactly WHAT does that say about luck then?  Why would markets gets wiped out by stupidity if people are smart?  Aren't they smart enough to avoid disasters?

Second, if it is only stupid people who lose money, then what about Long-Term Capital Management?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-Term_Capital_Management

They were a bunch of idiots also?  No, they were individuals who presumed that their mathematical models were robust enough, and certain abnormal things won't happen.  I was also informed in another thread that NO ONE foresaw that the economic meltdown would happen.   Yet there were a few, not many, and then it was in hindsight they look smart, like Peter Schiff.

Also, nonsense on thinking people are brilliant and so on.  People's purchases are driven by emotion, and they are able to replicate over and over and over and over bubble conditions, even when the outcome is known, due to greed:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/body/mind-over-money.html

 

 Supposedly "smart" people do get wiped out.  They fail to see what is going on, and get caught up in an arms race of risk, that results in a lot crashing and burning.  Sure, look back and blame government, but it seems natural to risk too much, in case of things going bad. BUT when the going is good, it is up and up and up above the norm.

Individuals like Donald Trump are noted for doing this overleveraging, which has highs and lows WAY beyond what normal expected outcome should be:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump

2008 financial crisis

Trump has been caught in the 2008 financial crisis as sales for his Trump International Hotel and Tower in Chicago have been lagging and he failed to pay a $40m loan to Deutsche Bank in December.[35] Arguing that the crisis is an Act of God, he evoked a clause in the contract to not pay the loan and initiated a countersuit asserting his image has been damaged.[35] Deutsche Bank has in turn noted in court that 'Trump is no stranger to overdue debt' and that he has twice previously filed for bankruptcy with respect to his casino operations.[35]

On February 17, 2009 Trump Entertainment Resorts filed for Chapter 11 Bankruptcy; Trump having stated on February 13 that he would resign from the board.[36] Trump Entertainment Resorts has three properties in Atlantic City.

A) Again, it's not luck.  You are trying to apply a very overly broad term as luck.  The people who were wiped out in the financial crisis were NOT a random group of people.

 B) Your own quotes on Donald Trump specifically show why your Donald Trump quote doesnt count. "Deutsche Bank has in turn noted in court that 'Trump is no stranger to overdue debt' and that he has twice previously filed for bankruptcy with respect to his casino operations."  Trump very much overplays the risks and has a backup to get himself out of it.  Not really luck. 

C) Even if taken as luck, you are now showing again that luck mostly isn't why people are super rich, again going against the context of your arguement.  Afterall, you are saying "What about these smart people that would of been rich any oftherime who aren't rich in this very rare occasion."

D) This doesn't show luck for a simple reason that people aren't succeeding who shouldn't of been in other cases, it's just everybody who previously succeeded failed.

List the categories of people who are extremely wealthy and how they got the wealth.  On that, about the only thing that a person can bring to a table that would not be considered luck is an irrational determination to keep trying over and over, combined with a humility to back off when persistence in an area that would never pan out.  Everything else comes from things they didn't bring.  Individuals can look to move to areas where the chance of positive outcomes is superior.  Money afford this more than a lack of it.  Same thing with a person like Trump, who established a large number of connections.  More resources afford more ability to take chances.  But the thing about chance is that it is out of your control.

 



richardhutnik said:
Kasz216 said:
richardhutnik said:
Kasz216 said:
 

The financial markets got wiped out because of stupid people.

Not on Wal-street.

The derivitives market was based on the belief that there wouldnt be a nationwide housing bubble.  Which was seen as an impossibility because the factors that cause the ups and downs of housing markets are local events.

The government, brilliant as they were decided to centralize housing values via lending acts and lowering housing insurance.  This causes a nationwide bubble that busted.

A lot of smart people got out when Wallstreet crashesd too by the way.  Denmark and Norway, two of the smartest governments, made a killing.  As did a few other smart nations.

Also, it's not survivor bias.  If 20 people say "I have this great idea, and people will love it"  and they all follow the same steps and only one of them succeeds....

then they in fact were smarter and more perceptive, because they were the one who did have something everybody would want.  The scenario they were in was not random.

Survivor bias is when you survive because a genocidal mad man has 9 bullets and 10 people to shoot.

Peoples purchasing habits aren't so random.

First, if people who had nothing to do with the financial markets get killed by stupid people, like lose their jobs, exactly WHAT does that say about luck then?  Why would markets gets wiped out by stupidity if people are smart?  Aren't they smart enough to avoid disasters?

Second, if it is only stupid people who lose money, then what about Long-Term Capital Management?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-Term_Capital_Management

They were a bunch of idiots also?  No, they were individuals who presumed that their mathematical models were robust enough, and certain abnormal things won't happen.  I was also informed in another thread that NO ONE foresaw that the economic meltdown would happen.   Yet there were a few, not many, and then it was in hindsight they look smart, like Peter Schiff.

Also, nonsense on thinking people are brilliant and so on.  People's purchases are driven by emotion, and they are able to replicate over and over and over and over bubble conditions, even when the outcome is known, due to greed:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/body/mind-over-money.html

 

 Supposedly "smart" people do get wiped out.  They fail to see what is going on, and get caught up in an arms race of risk, that results in a lot crashing and burning.  Sure, look back and blame government, but it seems natural to risk too much, in case of things going bad. BUT when the going is good, it is up and up and up above the norm.

Individuals like Donald Trump are noted for doing this overleveraging, which has highs and lows WAY beyond what normal expected outcome should be:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump

2008 financial crisis

Trump has been caught in the 2008 financial crisis as sales for his Trump International Hotel and Tower in Chicago have been lagging and he failed to pay a $40m loan to Deutsche Bank in December.[35] Arguing that the crisis is an Act of God, he evoked a clause in the contract to not pay the loan and initiated a countersuit asserting his image has been damaged.[35] Deutsche Bank has in turn noted in court that 'Trump is no stranger to overdue debt' and that he has twice previously filed for bankruptcy with respect to his casino operations.[35]

On February 17, 2009 Trump Entertainment Resorts filed for Chapter 11 Bankruptcy; Trump having stated on February 13 that he would resign from the board.[36] Trump Entertainment Resorts has three properties in Atlantic City.

A) Again, it's not luck.  You are trying to apply a very overly broad term as luck.  The people who were wiped out in the financial crisis were NOT a random group of people.

 B) Your own quotes on Donald Trump specifically show why your Donald Trump quote doesnt count. "Deutsche Bank has in turn noted in court that 'Trump is no stranger to overdue debt' and that he has twice previously filed for bankruptcy with respect to his casino operations."  Trump very much overplays the risks and has a backup to get himself out of it.  Not really luck. 

C) Even if taken as luck, you are now showing again that luck mostly isn't why people are super rich, again going against the context of your arguement.  Afterall, you are saying "What about these smart people that would of been rich any oftherime who aren't rich in this very rare occasion."

D) This doesn't show luck for a simple reason that people aren't succeeding who shouldn't of been in other cases, it's just everybody who previously succeeded failed.

List the categories of people who are extremely wealthy and how they got the wealth.  On that, about the only thing that a person can bring to a table that would not be considered luck is an irrational determination to keep trying over and over, combined with a humility to back off when persistence in an area that would never pan out.  Everything else comes from things they didn't bring.  Individuals can look to move to areas where the chance of positive outcomes is superior.  Money afford this more than a lack of it.  Same thing with a person like Trump, who established a large number of connections.  More resources afford more ability to take chances.  But the thing about chance is that it is out of your control.


List the categories of people who are extremly wealth and how they got their wealth.... ok.

 

1) Inventors - They got their wealth by inventing something people needed through their own foresight of what the market needed. 

2) Buisness founders - They got their wealth by creating a company and providing a good or servie that people needed, and possibly/probably got bought out by a bigger group that had the momey to take advantage of it.

3) Legacy people - These are the people who are lucky.  Like the Hiltons, or the Waltons... as is seen though, "a fool and his money are soon parted."

4) Hedge Fund managers - These people got their wealth by smart investing, hedge fund managers generally don't get paid unless those who they invest for get paid.

5) Atheletes - These people get wealth from an extreme dedication to a sport at a young age sacificing their childhood and by hiring the right trainers to mold them into "super atheletes".

6) Regular Ceos - Go through extensive training and then have to prove they are the best when it comes to the management world.

7) People who win the lotto.  See 3.

8) Dictators and other corrupt officials in regimes - they usually apply good political sense, charisma, force of will and leadership abilties to take control of a country and loot it's wealth.  Note how many dictators actually end up having "lowly" begginings.

9) Royal Shahs - See 3, except they are rich enough with oil money to never go broke.

 

Basically none fo this is chance, which is what you aren't getting.  Taking risks =/= luck.

Outside of the lottery.

 

That someone decides to invent an unattractive sport and puts all their effort and money towards it, and it failing is not bad luck, because it was a bad idea to begin with. 


You seem to be having a disconnect in that you think there are only two things in life, effort and luck... and that so long as you work towards an idea... even if it's a dumb one, so long as you simply care more, you should be successful.  If you fail because your idea was dumb, well then it must be bad luck for you having such a dumb idea while other people were "lucky" enough to not have dumb ideas.

Your treating "I want to create a new sport that's basially hand table tennis" the same as "I want to create a portable music player that plays digitial music."

It would be comforting to think that way, but that's all it would be comforting, not true in any way.  The truth is, every success and every failure, you can point to and realize "This is why they succeeded" or "This is why they failed."

To be super rich you need to "Work Smart" as well as hard.



Kasz216 said:
richardhutnik said:

List the categories of people who are extremely wealthy and how they got the wealth.  On that, about the only thing that a person can bring to a table that would not be considered luck is an irrational determination to keep trying over and over, combined with a humility to back off when persistence in an area that would never pan out.  Everything else comes from things they didn't bring.  Individuals can look to move to areas where the chance of positive outcomes is superior.  Money afford this more than a lack of it.  Same thing with a person like Trump, who established a large number of connections.  More resources afford more ability to take chances.  But the thing about chance is that it is out of your control.


List the categories of people who are extremly wealth and how they got their wealth.... ok.

1) Inventors - They got their wealth by inventing something people needed through their own foresight of what the market needed. 

2) Buisness founders - They got their wealth by creating a company and providing a good or servie that people needed, and possibly/probably got bought out by a bigger group that had the momey to take advantage of it.

3) Legacy people - These are the people who are lucky.  Like the Hiltons, or the Waltons... as is seen though, "a fool and his money are soon parted."

4) Hedge Fund managers - These people got their wealth by smart investing, hedge fund managers generally don't get paid unless those who they invest for get paid.

5) Atheletes - These people get wealth from an extreme dedication to a sport at a young age sacificing their childhood and by hiring the right trainers to mold them into "super atheletes".

6) Regular Ceos - Go through extensive training and then have to prove they are the best when it comes to the management world.

7) People who win the lotto.  See 3.

8) Dictators and other corrupt officials in regimes - they usually apply good political sense, charisma, force of will and leadership abilties to take control of a country and loot it's wealth.  Note how many dictators actually end up having "lowly" begginings.

9) Royal Shahs - See 3, except they are rich enough with oil money to never go broke.

Basically none fo this is chance, which is what you aren't getting.  Taking risks =/= luck.

Outside of the lottery.

That someone decides to invent an unattractive sport and puts all their effort and money towards it, and it failing is not bad luck, because it was a bad idea to begin with. 


You seem to be having a disconnect in that you think there are only two things in life, effort and luck... and that so long as you work towards an idea... even if it's a dumb one, so long as you simply care more, you should be successful.  If you fail because your idea was dumb, well then it must be bad luck for you having such a dumb idea while other people were "lucky" enough to not have dumb ideas.

Your treating "I want to create a new sport that's basially hand table tennis" the same as "I want to create a portable music player that plays digitial music."

It would be comforting to think that way, but that's all it would be comforting, not true in any way.  The truth is, every success and every failure, you can point to and realize "This is why they succeeded" or "This is why they failed."

To be super rich you need to "Work Smart" as well as hard.

Take a look at all the above, and I can show you where they involve factors out of the control of the person who gets them where they are:

1) Inventors: There are PLENTY of inventors out there.  Assuming they are fortunate enough to get a patent, and also have the right connections to get it to market, they would need to be lucky enough that what they invite has the right market conditions to become massively popular and in demand.  When someone invents, they are trying to solve a problem.  But no guarantee this solution is a golden ticket to becoming extremely wealthy, because the end result depends on market conditions breaking certain ways out of the control.  This doesn't mean that someone can't invent something which has some demand, but MONSTER demand, and sales?  Well that is a different animal completely.

2) Buisness founders: One can argue such an individual has the most control, but looking at how many businesses fail, there is a large degree of luck to match for longevity.  An individual may not be able to get funding, because they are too far ahead of the curve, and others don't see the vision.  Or, individuals end up going into a marketspace they got funded for, and it ends up being too late to the game.  Of course, there is also self-funding, and working on a shoestring.  But this will often end up

3) Legacy people - These are the people who are lucky: That is like 100% luck.  Even in retaining this wealth, there is more than just the initial "lucky sperm club" (Wayne Allyn Root's term), the individuals would then hopefully be from a good family, didn't fall into drug usage, or develop other destructive habits that cost them their fortune.

4) Hedge Fund managers: Let me change what you wrote.  Hedge Fund managers are paid to gamble with people's money, under the presumption that they have a magic understanding of things that make them superior to the average joe.  They take risks, and try to mitigate risk, by rigging the odds in favor.  They are still gambling, just try to better the odds.  Of course, all it takes is one black swan to wipe them and everyone who invested with them out.  Such individuals will rise to the top, by means of survivor bias, and seen as brilliant in retrospect.  Hedge Fund managers operate under the presumption they can outperform a market consisting of a pool of smart people also.   All this being true, individuals STILL can be remarkably stupid and crash and burn even faster.  Yes, there is skill here, but to get WAY above normal market performance means taking obscene risks, where a LOT needs to break right an pan out.  In short, they gambled, and got lucky.  They say, historically, no one outperforms the market, and that pans out.  You will look at the performance of individuals in the market, and look at individuals managing portfolio and they will be all over.  You won't be able to predict for certain who will be on top starting now, just looking back.

Why do they say you can't outperform the market?  Well, I would say it is part of the Delphi Effect, and wisdom of crowds where a large group will have more information than individuals, and a bunch of average people, so long as it is in the scope of their understanding, will generate a predictive outcome that is superior.  Look into prediction markets for more information on this.

5) Atheletes: Lucky genes, plus luck to have the right family (nurture), and get the right coaching.  Having the right make up, which comes from how one was raised, plus genetics, to NOT blow up, is also part of it.  One can see how a simple twist of fate, and not having something to back up, can lead to a complete and total fall from the top.  Mike Tyson loses his father figure, and Don King comes in and ruins him.   Look at one train wreck after another, and then Buster Douglas hits and Mike falls from the top.  The intimidation factor is gone, and the bully no longer can win by intimidation.  

6) Regular Ceos: Happen to end up in the right social circles, and end up networking and have people like them.  You will see a history of CEOs going from top of the world to getting canned, because of changes in market conditions they didn't have anything to do with.  Similar happens in professional sports where a coach or manager gets with the right team, and things break right.

7) People who win the lotto.  See 3:  This is a more extreme version of people who play in the financial markets.  They have no information, while the individuals in the financial markets, and play that casino, have some information, and can make some sound decisions... well, on the average.  The extremes, which get people to the next level, are usually in bubbles.  Also, individuals who win the lottery, will often have enough who never learned how to manage such money, so it all vanishes.  They get stupid, because they just don't know what to do, and then people they know come out of the woodworks and they lose everything.

8) Dictators and other corrupt officials in regimes - they usually apply good political sense, charisma, force of will and leadership abilties to take control of a country and loot it's wealth:  Basically war survivors.

9) Royal Shahs - See 3, except they are rich enough with oil money to never go broke: Definitely fits 3.  Born into wealth.



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I can sum up your entire post there in one way.'

"Attributing a bunch of very real factors soley to luck... even though said factos have nothing to do with luck."


I mean "There are tons of inventors."

Yes.  There are,  there are very few inventors with good enough ideas to make them a bunch of money.  "Fortunate enough to get a patent."

I'd call that.... forsight to get a patent.

"Fortunate enough to invent something people want"

I'd call that... having the foresight to invent something people want, and solve a problem that's a problem.


"Fortunate enough to have the right buisness connections"

I'd call that.... making buisness connections.

 

None of that is luck. 


If I invent a machine that makes peoples cold beer immediatly luke warm, i'm not "unlucky because i inevented something nobody wanted". 

I was dumb for putting time and effort towards something nobody wants.

 

It's like making yourself morbidly obese on purpose, and then lamenting your luck that you don't live in an era where that is seen as attractive.

It's not luck, you just made a bad choice.

I mean, you are literally saying "What you invented" is soley due to luck.

As if inventing is just you spinning a magic wheel and maybe god gives you a winner and maybe you invent something dumb.



Kasz216 said:

I can sum up your entire post there in one way.'

"Attributing a bunch of very real factors soley to luck... even though said factos have nothing to do with luck."


I mean "There are tons of inventors."

Yes.  There are,  there are very few inventors with good enough ideas to make them a bunch of money.  "Fortunate enough to get a patent."

I'd call that.... forsight to get a patent.

"Fortunate enough to invent something people want"

I'd call that... having the foresight to invent something people want, and solve a problem that's a problem.


"Fortunate enough to have the right buisness connections"

I'd call that.... making buisness connections.

 

None of that is luck. 


If I invent a machine that makes peoples cold beer immediatly luke warm, i'm not "unlucky because i inevented something nobody wanted". 

I was dumb for putting time and effort towards something nobody wants.

 

It's like making yourself morbidly obese on purpose, and then lamenting your luck that you don't live in an era where that is seen as attractive.

It's not luck, you just made a bad choice.

It is far easier to make bad choices than good ones.  However, here is a kicker:  Someone sets out to end up being a historically stupid failure in life, without killing themself.  Word about this gets out, and they become a media sensation, for reasons people can't foresee.  They end up selling merchandise and get rich off it, as they ride the fad, getting sponsorship deals.  In short, they are a glorified version of Amanda Black, with their own Friday. 

And that is how things work.  However, to go the OTHER way, to be extremely wealthy, abnormally wealthy, requires a lot not in your control.



richardhutnik said:
Kasz216 said:

I can sum up your entire post there in one way.'

"Attributing a bunch of very real factors soley to luck... even though said factos have nothing to do with luck."


I mean "There are tons of inventors."

Yes.  There are,  there are very few inventors with good enough ideas to make them a bunch of money.  "Fortunate enough to get a patent."

I'd call that.... forsight to get a patent.

"Fortunate enough to invent something people want"

I'd call that... having the foresight to invent something people want, and solve a problem that's a problem.


"Fortunate enough to have the right buisness connections"

I'd call that.... making buisness connections.

 

None of that is luck. 


If I invent a machine that makes peoples cold beer immediatly luke warm, i'm not "unlucky because i inevented something nobody wanted". 

I was dumb for putting time and effort towards something nobody wants.

 

It's like making yourself morbidly obese on purpose, and then lamenting your luck that you don't live in an era where that is seen as attractive.

It's not luck, you just made a bad choice.

It is far easier to make bas choices than good ones.  However, here is a kicker:  Someone sets out to end up being a historically stupid failure in life, without killing themself.  Word about this gets out, and they become a media sensation, for reasons people can't foresee.  They end up selling merchandise and get rich off it, as they ride the fad, getting sponsorship deals.  In short, they are a glorified version of Amanda Black, with their own Friday.

And that is how things work.  However, to go the OTHER way, to be extremely wealthy, abnormally wealthy, requires a lot not in your control.


A) Amanda Black didn't go out of her way to be a failure

B) Amanda Black hasn't seen a dime from friday

C) Ark Music Factory, whose set up a buisness to fill the niche of "Rich white girls who want to be pop stars" did make a lot of money however, a WHOLE lot of money by setting up a youtube video and putting the song on Itunes.

D) It being a lot easier to make bad choices then good choices is proof it isn't luck.

E) Factors being out of your control =/= luck.  If you invent something nobody wants, that's out of your control,  It's not bad luck that nobody wanted it though.



Kasz216 said:
richardhutnik said:
Kasz216 said:

I can sum up your entire post there in one way.'

"Attributing a bunch of very real factors soley to luck... even though said factos have nothing to do with luck."


I mean "There are tons of inventors."

Yes.  There are,  there are very few inventors with good enough ideas to make them a bunch of money.  "Fortunate enough to get a patent."

I'd call that.... forsight to get a patent.

"Fortunate enough to invent something people want"

I'd call that... having the foresight to invent something people want, and solve a problem that's a problem.


"Fortunate enough to have the right buisness connections"

I'd call that.... making buisness connections.

 

None of that is luck. 


If I invent a machine that makes peoples cold beer immediatly luke warm, i'm not "unlucky because i inevented something nobody wanted". 

I was dumb for putting time and effort towards something nobody wants.

 

It's like making yourself morbidly obese on purpose, and then lamenting your luck that you don't live in an era where that is seen as attractive.

It's not luck, you just made a bad choice.

It is far easier to make bas choices than good ones.  However, here is a kicker:  Someone sets out to end up being a historically stupid failure in life, without killing themself.  Word about this gets out, and they become a media sensation, for reasons people can't foresee.  They end up selling merchandise and get rich off it, as they ride the fad, getting sponsorship deals.  In short, they are a glorified version of Amanda Black, with their own Friday.

And that is how things work.  However, to go the OTHER way, to be extremely wealthy, abnormally wealthy, requires a lot not in your control.


A) Amanda Black didn't go out of her way to be a failure

B) Amanda Black hasn't seen a dime from friday

C) Ark Music Factory, whose set up a buisness to fill the niche of "Rich white girls who want to be pop stars" did make a lot of money however, a WHOLE lot of money by setting up a youtube video and putting the song on Itunes.

D) It being a lot easier to make bad choices then good choices is proof it isn't luck.

E) Factors being out of your control =/= luck.  If you invent something nobody wants, that's out of your control,  It's not bad luck that nobody wanted it though.

How are factors not in your control not luck?  For a lack of something better, let's go to Wikipedia again:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luck

Luck or fortuity is good or bad fortune in life caused by accident or chance, and attributed by some to reasons of faith or superstition, which happens beyond a person's control.

Then consider randomness, which is what you might be thinking of:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randomness

Having no definite aim or purpose; not sent or guided in a particular direction; made, done, occurring, etc., without method or conscious choice; haphazard.

I could argue that both are true with the case of extreme wealth, but more likely to be the former, where extreme wealth is largely due to factors not in the control of the person.  Would say that being totally random would be more likely to insure you DON'T end up with extreme wealth, to a place where it is statistically zero.  For my initial point to be valid, has to be shown that over 50% of the reasons why someone is or isn't extremely wealthy, is due to factors not in their control.  If it is, then my initial point is valid.  Same would go with fame today, by how fame works.  One can say that, in the past, fame was the benchmark of attributes someone had and deeds they did.  Now it is merely a matter of something going viral, and desired as an end result.



WHO THE HELL IS AMANDA BLACK?