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Forums - General - Wow how long is Libya gonna wait?

Its not America's battle.

Yes, its horrible that atrocities like the Libyan protests & subsequent massacres exist, but to single out this specific one for intervention is stupid, and sets a bad precedent for others.

Where were we when Saddam butchered thousands in the post-Gulf War uprising?

Where were we when troops started firing on protestors in Yemen? Saudi Arabia? Bahrain?

What about Iran's Green Revolution over a year ago?

How long did we let the atrocities in Darfur continue before we finally sent in a few people to keep the peace after many were murdered?

What about the Muslims killing the Christians in Southern Sudan?

The fact is, atrocities like this happen on an almost daily basis. I don't think its right for a nation to pick and choose who they decide to impose international law on. More people died in Mexico last year from the drug wars than American troops throughout the entire Afghan/Iraqi wars. Did we lift a finger and start bombing drug compounds?

America has helped establish many, many leaders by intervening in conflicts like the the one we're seeing on TV today. The issue is that we have about a 20-30% chance of actually installing a good leader. Do not forget that we helped prop up Honsi Mubarak for decades. We murdered the leader of Vietnam and backed up the new leader to kick start the Vietnam war. We backed a massacre in the Bay of Pigs incedent, which resulted in not only the deaths of thousands, but tense relations with Cuba which has brought about the establishment of even more radical communism in Cuba which has killed and slaughtered many.We also backed Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban in Afghanistan against the Soviets which brought in a wonderful regime which we ended up fighting again, and are still there.

Its my belief that we can't police the world and pick the winners and losers simply out of some sort of moral, Democratic attitude. It makes as much sense as the government financially backing companies through grants and subisdies which creates an artificial economy which has resulted in recessions and depressions in our country, and in the world.

Furthermore, America was trashed and thrown mud at the world over when we attacked Iraq and Afghanistan. We should sit back and remark about how insane Europe is for doing nearly the same things we did.

Finally, it sets a fantastic precedent for countries like Russia and China to attack their neighbors in the case of regime uncertainty. Russia did a similar maneuver against Georgia when they attacked South Ossetia in 2008. They did so claiming precent set by the United States against Afghanistan. Personally, I do not want those filthy despots to have any sort of ability to claim such action is justifiable. What will we say when China claims to do the same to Taiwan, or Vietnam?

 

Our best course of action is non-interventionism. We should remind the starving, brutalized masses that there are countries in the world that give every person free voice. America was founded by people who were persecuted for religious, social, political and economic reasons the world over. We can still be that country that everyone wants to come to if we didn't always try to have our way in their country. If we did this, then these new freedom-loving people would build our country stronger whilst depriving the despots of their best and brightest, bringing about internal collapses.



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NATO air forces are extraordinarily loss-averse, as they proved in Kosovo where they were willing to sacrifice accuracy in their bombing of Yugoslavia in order to guarantee that the Yugoslav air defenses couldn't touch them. I remember reading that the US Joint Chiefs were hesitant to commit to an aerially-enforced no-fly zone while Libya's air defenses were still intact

They still want to see if the situation will resolve itself



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America's Military is not so thin, in fact we are only using combat ready soldiers for the Middle Eastern battles. The Air and Heavy Cav's have taken a beating but it's mostly wear from constant usage.

The Soldiers themselves can take credit for something no other soldier in the world can take credit for, they know how to fight in the Middle East. Some have seen even twenty years of service there already.. well 21 by now.

I'm sorry but Obama hasn't made promises to the Libyan people at least his words haven't been that strong. Actually his strongest statement was to note the crime against humanity about a week ago. But I think the way it's being looked at is it's a matter of who puts their leg forward first. I'm wondering when some terrorists will help these poor people.

 At this point the American people may not want war on Libya after the blame of US economic stresses fell on Iraq, that might be how Washington sees it.

Realisticly I believe the Libyan Military will stand down if their is real international action taken, in fact I'm sure of it based on the Libyan armies response to the consideration of intervention when it was first being discussed.



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mrstickball said:

Its not America's battle.

Yes, its horrible that atrocities like the Libyan protests & subsequent massacres exist, but to single out this specific one for intervention is stupid, and sets a bad precedent for others.

Where were we when Saddam butchered thousands in the post-Gulf War uprising?

Where were we when troops started firing on protestors in Yemen? Saudi Arabia? Bahrain?

What about Iran's Green Revolution over a year ago?

How long did we let the atrocities in Darfur continue before we finally sent in a few people to keep the peace after many were murdered?

What about the Muslims killing the Christians in Southern Sudan?

The fact is, atrocities like this happen on an almost daily basis. I don't think its right for a nation to pick and choose who they decide to impose international law on. More people died in Mexico last year from the drug wars than American troops throughout the entire Afghan/Iraqi wars. Did we lift a finger and start bombing drug compounds?

America has helped establish many, many leaders by intervening in conflicts like the the one we're seeing on TV today. The issue is that we have about a 20-30% chance of actually installing a good leader. Do not forget that we helped prop up Honsi Mubarak for decades. We murdered the leader of Vietnam and backed up the new leader to kick start the Vietnam war. We backed a massacre in the Bay of Pigs incedent, which resulted in not only the deaths of thousands, but tense relations with Cuba which has brought about the establishment of even more radical communism in Cuba which has killed and slaughtered many.We also backed Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban in Afghanistan against the Soviets which brought in a wonderful regime which we ended up fighting again, and are still there.

Its my belief that we can't police the world and pick the winners and losers simply out of some sort of moral, Democratic attitude. It makes as much sense as the government financially backing companies through grants and subisdies which creates an artificial economy which has resulted in recessions and depressions in our country, and in the world.

Furthermore, America was trashed and thrown mud at the world over when we attacked Iraq and Afghanistan. We should sit back and remark about how insane Europe is for doing nearly the same things we did.

Finally, it sets a fantastic precedent for countries like Russia and China to attack their neighbors in the case of regime uncertainty. Russia did a similar maneuver against Georgia when they attacked South Ossetia in 2008. They did so claiming precent set by the United States against Afghanistan. Personally, I do not want those filthy despots to have any sort of ability to claim such action is justifiable. What will we say when China claims to do the same to Taiwan, or Vietnam?

 

Our best course of action is non-interventionism. We should remind the starving, brutalized masses that there are countries in the world that give every person free voice. America was founded by people who were persecuted for religious, social, political and economic reasons the world over. We can still be that country that everyone wants to come to if we didn't always try to have our way in their country. If we did this, then these new freedom-loving people would build our country stronger whilst depriving the despots of their best and brightest, bringing about internal collapses.


Agreed, bad examples though some of them; a lot of them were clandestine so it pulled the wool over democracy.



I'm Unamerica and you can too.

The Official Huge Monster Hunter Thread: 



The Hunt Begins 4/20/2010 =D

mrstickball said:

 

More people died in Mexico last year from the drug wars than American troops throughout the entire Afghan/Iraqi wars. Did we lift a finger and start bombing drug compounds?


while the US may not be bombing these compounds the US does provide military assistance to mexico...for example, the US flies drones over parts of mexico. 

and the US still provides military assistance to the people of columbia agaisnt FARC.



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MrBubbles said:
mrstickball said:

 

More people died in Mexico last year from the drug wars than American troops throughout the entire Afghan/Iraqi wars. Did we lift a finger and start bombing drug compounds?


while the US may not be bombing these compounds the US does provide military assistance to mexico...for example, the US flies drones over parts of mexico. 

and the US still provides military assistance to the people of columbia agaisnt FARC.

Yes, I know we provide some assistance, but we provide a lot of menial assistance to various countries for various reasons. What I am talking about is military intervention in foreign countries. We shouldn't intervene in such things in a physical (flying over, bombing, ect) way.



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Now I'm really really angry, too. After so long it took to establish no-fly zone, instead of destroying Lybian air force and bombing the bases, they shoot down fighter jet belonging to rebels. What the fuck is that, so much for support UN promised to rebels! And while UN were busy destroying rebels thin air force, Benghazi was under a strike and shelling! Meanwhile fucking clown Kadafi is smiling and explaining that it were rebels who bombed the rebel capital. I'm just speachless, what the fuck US/NATO is doing?! Is it so hard to bomb Tripoli and kill Kadafi with his fucking government and save people lives? What an assholes are leading us?



MDMAniac said:

Now I'm really really angry, too. After so long it took to establish no-fly zone, instead of destroying Lybian air force and bombing the bases, they shoot down fighter jet belonging to rebels. What the fuck is that, so much for support UN promised to rebels! And while UN were busy destroying rebels thin air force, Benghazi was under a strike and shelling! Meanwhile fucking clown Kadafi is smiling and explaining that it were rebels who bombed the rebel capital. I'm just speachless, what the fuck US/NATO is doing?! Is it so hard to bomb Tripoli and kill Kadafi with his fucking government and save people lifes? What an assholes are leading us?


i think you should recheck your facts.  a simple time line of when the french first opened fire(who were the first ones there) and when the plane went down.  then you will realize the real assholes are the ones absurdly making accusations at nato and the US for their own disgusting, sick agendas. 



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"Its like sex, but with a winner!"

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mrstickball said:

Its not America's battle.

Pretty much this.  I'm very confused as to why the OP has decided to single out the United States.



noname2200 said:
mrstickball said:

Its not America's battle.

Pretty much this.  I'm very confused as to why the OP has decided to single out the United States.

When you're the sole superpower (hegemon) pretty much anything, anywhere can be your responsibility if the location in question is at all significant, though this speaks purely from an objective, power-perspective



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