superchunk said:
Joelcool7 said:
Who are you kidding using the Crusades. The whole reason the Crusades happened was because Muslim armies conquered it from Christians in 1076. Muslims were threatening to capture Constantinople. Christians were being massacred and persecuted by the Muslim over lords who had taken over Israel and Jerusalem.
When the Muslims moved towards Constantinople in 1097 over 10,000 Christians mounted in Constantinople to take back the holy land from the oppressive Muslim's. The first Crusade managed to recapture Israel in 1099. The Crusaders butchered everyone within the walls, pretty much. However during that time period the Muslim armies did similiar acts of genocide against the Christians.
During the four crusades horrible acts of genocide and war crimes were commited by the Muslims and the Christian's alike. Muslims killed and persecuted thousands of Christians if not millions, this was the reason the Crusades happened to begin with. If Muslim armies hadn't taken over Jerusalem in the first place none of the crusades would have occured.
It was Islamist oppression that sparked the Crusades. Though I agree the Crusaders did horrible things the Muslims weren't much better.
Also during the second Crusade Muslims were allowed to visit Jerusalem and worship in their mosques. Saladin also took all those who couldn't afford a ransom into slavery when he took Jerusalem.
In the end Christianity matured. Islam did not. The Bible (New Testiment) preaches peace and love with all non-believers where as the Qur'an tells Muslims to kill infidel. Their is a drastic difference between the two faiths. Today Muslim countries force Christian's to convert or be killed and kill any Muslim's who convert to Christianity.
Islam is stuck in the dark ages (In the Middle East), the rest of the world has matured. Islam as a religion is extremely oppressive. I love my Muslim brothers but what the Muslim Governments are doing in the middle east and north africa is unnacceptable.
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1. I mentioned Crusades as one small part of an overall topic.
2. While the first Crusade was a military defensive initiation, the others were not.
3. The Holy Land had already, peacefully, been under Muslim control for over 300 years by the time of the firts Crusade and during all that time, and all the time after, Muslims freely allowed Jews and Christians to worship at their respective sites. However, during the Christian ruled times the Jews and Muslims were allowed no such freedoms and in fact the Dome of the Rock and entire Temple area were used as a trash heap and horse stable.
4. The Christian bible in has numerous war related verses about defeating your enemies. While primarily existing in the OT, it also exists in other parts. Principally, you have to realize the time frame it was written, Christians were a small minority under duress from Jews and Roman power and/or it was stories about Jesus, a single Jew whose purpose was to redirect Jews. Not start a revolution and new religion.
5. EVERY verse in the Qur'an about fighting others is:
A) not referring to jews/christians as they are considered beleivers and/or people of the book, not infidels.
B) always prefaced by talk about existing wars (at the time of the writing) and conflicts with other polytheist Arabs
C) always followed by talk about reconcilation, push to get peace, accepting peace, treaties, etc and that the aggressor in a war is not liked by God.
6. Yes Christianity has changed and matured into a religion far closer to its actual teaching, while Islam is definately not there. But, that is the point of my thread. To demonstrate that this is not new to any religion and its not the basis of Islam. People of all faiths, espeially nonMuslims, need to quit reiterating and trying to prove that Islam is evil and violent, but instead need to focus on the real message Islam was and is defined as in the Qur'an.
In other words, by trying to continuously prove and show Islam as violent and evil, you are only supporting the cause of the extremists. But, by focusing on what the Qur'an actually says in total and the history of Islamic culture before the 1800's, you can then start a process where modern Muslim societies will realize that they are not following Islam.
Finally, Islam is not stuck in the Dark Ages, because that implies Islam acted like this during those centuries, when in fact it did not. The Dark Ages left Christianity and centuries later developed in the Islamic world. However, just as Muslim controlled Spain helped ignited the philosophies and ideologies that pushed the beginnings of the Renassance, Christian controlled western world should help ignite the modern philosphies of democracy, peace, freedoms that had already existed in Islamic cultures for centuries before.
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I was defending the actions of the Christian's. I must say that the New Testiment the basis of Christianity does not preach anything about slaughtering non-believers infact it doesn't even condone stonings or other ruthless acts. However during the Crusades the Bible was in Latin , Hebrew and Greek. Most Christians couldn't actually read the thing, they believed anything the Catholic Church told them.
The Crusades were started to recapture Christian territory. As Sapphi pointed out those Christian's fought each other. But they saw Islam as a bigger threat then one another and teemed up. A few elitist Catholic's told the people that God would forgive all their sins if they fought in the Holy War.
The acts of the Catholics were fighting to recapture Christian land. However I must agree and say that the Catholic church lied to the people and got them to do unspeakable things in the name of what they thought was God. Today we know from the teachings of Jesus and because everyone has access to the Bible that Christianity does not support genocide or horrible acts commited by a few Crusaders.
5. I know that the Qur'an teaches Jews and Christian's are people of the book but many Muslims I talk to do not even know that. Here in Canada I have a moderate or at least semi-moderate Muslim friend who tells me that it is not in the Qur'an. He says Jihad is. But guess what he himself hasn't read the Qur'an he said it is an insult to translate it to english. He basis his beliefs on the teachings of his Imam and what his family has taught him.
Fact is just like the Christian's were decieved by fakers telling them lies about their faith today Muslims across the globe are being dooped the same way by religious extremists.
P.S- SuperChunk are you Muslim? I've always wondered something even after talking with some Imam's who didn't give me a good answer. If Islam is being hijacked by extremists and Muslim people are being decieved into persecuting and killing Christian's and all other non-believers. Why aren't the real (Moderate) Muslims over in the Middle East and North Africa trying to set them streight and educate them?
Why is it that the moderate Muslim's aren't joining the army to go help liberate Iraq, Afghanistan. Why aren't moderate Muslims out their preeching peace to the masses. Why is it I hear about Fatwa after Fatwa being issued against free thinkers in North America while the moderate Muslim community sits back and does nothing.
Why is it Muslims aren't fighting these misguided fools to free those being oppressed? Why is it that these extremists actually have sway over so many muslims. Why is it that a Mosque in Vancouver got found to have Jihadist speakers and none of the moderate Muslims said a thing to condem him?
Why are muslims sitting idolly by as their religion is tainted and sqewed and turned into a horrible weapon of war?
I've always wondered if Islam truly preaches peace (Which from what I've read it does) then why don't Muslims across the world help their fellow Christian's , Jews? Why do Muslims allow their faith to be used against them? I guess democratic movement in Libya, Egypt and Tunisia is a good start but why aren't muslims lining up to join Nato and/or fighting terrorists in other ways.
I just can't understand if Islam is so nice and compassionate and understanding of Christian's and Jews. Why aren't the majority if many at all doing anything to help their brethern?
