You either include Blu-ray with your console like Sony has done, but if you don't include it as basic in the system, just leave it like that.  Don't bring out an add on drive.

I don't see the point in the MS bringing out an HDDVD drive for the 360.  You're not going to get better games as they won't create a game to take advantage of the HD disc format as it would alienate the 360 owners that don't own a HDDVD drive.  All you can do really is play HDDVD discs...so why not buy an HDDVD player?

Sony made the jump to include Blu-Ray, this gives them the added bonus of firstly, the player to play BR movies and the added space for bigger games.  The downfall is the price and having to wait until it was ready to include.

If Sony had decided against Blu-Ray, then they could have released the PS3 earlier and at a much reduced price...probably half the price TBH.  It would have been a much safer bet for them, but they decided to be risky and push through this new digital format.

It may or may not work for them, but I do feel in the long term, it will work out okay if not amazingly so! 

he also said its gonna come back and bite him in the ass.

davygee said: You either include Blu-ray with your console like Sony has done, but if you don't include it as basic in the system, just leave it like that. Don't bring out an add on drive. I don't see the point in the MS bringing out an HDDVD drive for the 360. You're not going to get better games as they won't create a game to take advantage of the HD disc format as it would alienate the 360 owners that don't own a HDDVD drive. All you can do really is play HDDVD discs...so why not buy an HDDVD player? Sony made the jump to include Blu-Ray, this gives them the added bonus of firstly, the player to play BR movies and the added space for bigger games. The downfall is the price and having to wait until it was ready to include. If Sony had decided against Blu-Ray, then they could have released the PS3 earlier and at a much reduced price...probably half the price TBH. It would have been a much safer bet for them, but they decided to be risky and push through this new digital format. It may or may not work for them, but I do feel in the long term, it will work out okay if not amazingly so!

Well, at least me and you are on the same page.  I swear it's lonely on this forum sometimes.

About clever data usage. Anyone remember Resident Evil 2 on N64? DL discs lower the read speed, but if the speed is half, compared to SL discs, 360 still reads the discs as fast as PS3. Who was it that said, that they compressed data 2:1, because PS3 decompresses faster than it reads. So, if you want data to read fast, then you have to compress it. I don't know, that how much you can compress the data with 360 and PS3, but the point still is, that you have to compress it. Otherwise you lose the speed. 360 and PS3 are very powerful, and can decompress data fast.

bdbdbd said: About clever data usage. Anyone remember Resident Evil 2 on N64? DL discs lower the read speed, but if the speed is half, compared to SL discs, 360 still reads the discs as fast as PS3. Who was it that said, that they compressed data 2:1, because PS3 decompresses faster than it reads. So, if you want data to read fast, then you have to compress it. I don't know, that how much you can compress the data with 360 and PS3, but the point still is, that you have to compress it. Otherwise you lose the speed. 360 and PS3 are very powerful, and can decompress data fast.

Uh, no.  Max read speed for 12x DVD is about 16MB/s compared to 2x blu-ray at 9MB/s.  Except, the max speeds for DVD are only available at the edge of the disc, whereas blu-ray has the same read speed throughout the disc.  So, the 360's drive averages about 10-12MB/s compared to 9MB/s. 

Of course, the advantage would be with the 360 here since critical files can be located at the faster portion of the disc.  Except, speeds are slower on DL discs than blu-ray (especially if you go by half speed like you're saying).  Then, you can always install critical files on the hard drive to load even faster.  Only PS3 can count on that with every system.  I'm not sure what the read speed is for the PS3 hard drive but I assure you it's average read speed is at least 3 times faster than the max read speed of 12x DVD with a SL disc.

windbane said: bdbdbd said: About clever data usage. Anyone remember Resident Evil 2 on N64? DL discs lower the read speed, but if the speed is half, compared to SL discs, 360 still reads the discs as fast as PS3. Who was it that said, that they compressed data 2:1, because PS3 decompresses faster than it reads. So, if you want data to read fast, then you have to compress it. I don't know, that how much you can compress the data with 360 and PS3, but the point still is, that you have to compress it. Otherwise you lose the speed. 360 and PS3 are very powerful, and can decompress data fast. Uh, no.  Max read speed for 12x DVD is about 16MB/s compared to 2x blu-ray at 9MB/s.  Except, the max speeds for DVD are only available at the edge of the disc, whereas blu-ray has the same read speed throughout the disc.  So, the 360's drive averages about 10-12MB/s compared to 9MB/s.  Of course, the advantage would be with the 360 here since critical files can be located at the faster portion of the disc.  Except, speeds are slower on DL discs than blu-ray (especially if you go by half speed like you're saying).  Then, you can always install critical files on the hard drive to load even faster.  Only PS3 can count on that with every system.  I'm not sure what the read speed is for the PS3 hard drive but I assure you it's average read speed is at least 3 times faster than the max read speed of 12x DVD with a SL disc.

Every DVD drive i have had, have the "speed times X" being based on the average. Of course i don't know what rate M$ has told. 4.5 Mbps for the 1xspeed for BD? Isn't that 4.5 the tranfer rate used for HD movies? Which is 1.5 times the standard.

bdbdbd said: windbane said: bdbdbd said: About clever data usage. Anyone remember Resident Evil 2 on N64? DL discs lower the read speed, but if the speed is half, compared to SL discs, 360 still reads the discs as fast as PS3. Who was it that said, that they compressed data 2:1, because PS3 decompresses faster than it reads. So, if you want data to read fast, then you have to compress it. I don't know, that how much you can compress the data with 360 and PS3, but the point still is, that you have to compress it. Otherwise you lose the speed. 360 and PS3 are very powerful, and can decompress data fast. Uh, no. Max read speed for 12x DVD is about 16MB/s compared to 2x blu-ray at 9MB/s. Except, the max speeds for DVD are only available at the edge of the disc, whereas blu-ray has the same read speed throughout the disc. So, the 360's drive averages about 10-12MB/s compared to 9MB/s. Of course, the advantage would be with the 360 here since critical files can be located at the faster portion of the disc. Except, speeds are slower on DL discs than blu-ray (especially if you go by half speed like you're saying). Then, you can always install critical files on the hard drive to load even faster. Only PS3 can count on that with every system. I'm not sure what the read speed is for the PS3 hard drive but I assure you it's average read speed is at least 3 times faster than the max read speed of 12x DVD with a SL disc.   Every DVD drive i have had, have the "speed times X" being based on the average. Of course i don't know what rate M$ has told. 4.5 Mbps for the 1xspeed for BD? Isn't that 4.5 the tranfer rate used for HD movies? Which is 1.5 times the standard.

Well I said the average is around 12x (actually slightly lower like I said). That means part is slower than blu-ray and part is faster. Blu-ray is constant. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray shows the speeds, and 2x is 72Mb/s which is 9MB/s (bits versus bytes, 8 bits per byte). That's read speeds. The bit rates for various things are on that wikipedia link and show blu-ray being faster than hd-dvd and of course dvd for audio, video, and transfer. Again, dual-layer reads are slower and hard drives are much faster than either anyway.

Fankly, I would have done a compromise: There would be two PS3 SKUs. The lower would have the 20GB HDD and just a DVD drive, which the games would run on, like the 360. The higher would have the 60GB HDD and the blu-ray drive, but just for movies. It would lose showing off the games, but the lower SKU would cost a hell of a lot less, to make and to sell, so PS3 sales would increase. The higher end one would have the bigger HDD to help appeal to those why wouldn't feel they need the blu-ray drive.

And the optical drives would be removable, so those with the lower end could upgrade to blu-ray later on. The PS3 would just have the firmware only accept blu-ray instead of HD-DVD (barring hacks, but they could do that with the PS3 now). 

windbane said: Well I said the average is around 12x (actually slightly lower like I said). That means part is slower than blu-ray and part is faster. Blu-ray is constant. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray shows the speeds, and 2x is 72Mb/s which is 9MB/s (bits versus bytes, 8 bits per byte). That's read speeds. The bit rates for various things are on that wikipedia link and show blu-ray being faster than hd-dvd and of course dvd for audio, video, and transfer. Again, dual-layer reads are slower and hard drives are much faster than either anyway.

I noticed, that i wrote bit instead of Byte. I was a bit in a hurry, when i read your earlier post, so i didn't read and think at the same time. And i couldn't check your link, because those wikipedia links are pretty shitty with Symbian OS. Anyway. That the read speed averages on DVD, mean that at the center of the data area, speed is (for example 4x ~40Mbps) what the manufacturer has told it to be and at the end its much higher (and at the start much lower). Isn't the std read speed for BD 4.3MBps? So with half of the 360 speed, PS3 has about 1MBps advantage (in average), and thats not so much anymore. But by filling the disc with something, what the drive skips, we are able to get more speed for average (if disc isn't full). But i can see your point (at least i think so) and don't argue with that. And there are also the tracking times, of which i don't know that what they are on each console. Yes, but when we are using the HDD, it's pretty much meaningless if the games were even on a CD.

last videos from developers walkthrough perfectly runs on blu-ray, and has 32x32km maps. =)

http://www.gametrailers.com/gamepage.php?id=2657

looks amazing!

 

p.s. how many Games with streaming textures made Jaffie ? 0. =))