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Forums - General - Should People Take Justice Into Their Own Hands (partocular case)

 

Should People Take Justice Into Their Own Hands (partocular case)

Yes 48 57.83%
 
No 32 38.55%
 
Total:80
pizzahut451 said:
sapphi_snake said:
pizzahut451 said:


So you are saying the Christians used violence on Romans? Yeah, that makes sense considering the size and power of Roman Empire back than... And you should know that by conquering the Empreror, Christianity conquerered Rome.  And sorry to dissapoint you, but religion ws a HUGE deal to people back than, probably one of the most important factors of daily life back than. The Jupiter was Roman most prasied God, and they all rejected him and accepted the true God. And do you mind ansvering this question, why did an Empreror turned Christian when  his Empire haunted christians down for decades? It must have been because of the evil christian bastrds brainwashig him, right? It couldnt possibly be that he actually enlightend by our religion. 

 

Your second paragraph is straight up pointless, i wasnt arguing waht other christians did, just that the Christianity conquerd Rome without using violence.

I'd go with the brainwashing part, as cults are known to do that. Too bad there were no deprogramming experts back then.

Anyways, Christians were persectued back then because they often refused to fight in the military, and they did not awknoledge that the Emepror was a god (something which gave the Emperor legitimacy in the eyes of the people). Of course people back the were superstitious, and when Constantine thoght that he recieved help from "God" when he won a battle, he decided to give special favor to Christianity (the whole legitimacy issue would be solved in the future, by sayin things like "the King/Emperor was sent by God to rule over the Empire/Kingdom" nonsense). People only converted to get in the Emperor's good graces, not because they found the religion "enlightning". And eventually, when Christianity was declared the official religion, pagans were persected, killed, their places of whorship were destroyed etc.

Wow, ok, im gonna stop arguing right now after i read that bolded part...wow. Did you hear yourself when you typed that?

EDIT: BTW, just to collapse your 2nd paragraph, Emperor wasn't considerd a God in Rome back than, Jupiter was. People thought that Emperor wa put in his position by God, not that he was God himself

I stand by my frist paragraph. It was most likely brainwashing by a cult. Nothing too amazing. Happens today too. As I said, shame tehre were no deprogramming experts back then.

As for my second paragraph, the Romans worshipped many gods, not just Jupiter (they were polytheists after all, though you seem to be forgetting that). The Emperor was also worshipped as a god (as part of the Imperial cult), something that the Romans borrowed fron the Egyptians. This is one of the main reasons that Christians were persecuted: not worshipping the Emperor as if he were a god meant denying his legitimacy, and was considered treason. Christian kings were the ones who said that they were put in their positions by God.



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I have no idea where this conversation went, as I just clicked on the last page, but to those wondering why rome accepted christianity after torturing and murdering christians, it wasn't brainwashing, or a peaceful grassroots movement. It was a combination of dumb luck, religious intolerance, and time.

 

The romans were polytheists, believed in many many gods. The emporer Constantine before going into the battle of the milvian bridge was looking for a god to pray to in order to bring good luck in the fight. He went with the christian god, painted crosses on the sheilds of his soldiers and prayed to Yahweh. Then he won the fight, praises be to Jah.

To celebrate he said that all religions were acceptable for romans (thus stopping persecution towards christians), returned property and churches to christians, and then he himself converted to christianity. And we all know the christian view of non christian religions. Under him temples to roman gods became christians temples, and christians started to be placed in high places in the roman government. Namely these were christians that had been "traditors", or traitorous christians that handed over christian documents to be burned and sold out other christians to the romans back before Constantine had converted himself.

 He believed that there needed to be a christian orthodoxy that all christians abided by, which lead to him leading a christian army to slaughter a different sect of christians (the donatists that labeled the traditors heretics) that were not part of christian orthodoxy (there goes the whole "conquered rome without violence" theory). This was probably the first instance of christian on christian violence. This also lead to the first council of Nicaea which eventually leads to the holy roman empire and the catholic church, and christianity as we know it today.

 

So there. Rome converted to christianity because an emperor chose one out of a thousand deities to aid him in battle, won, converted to christianity, promoted a group of traitorous roman sympathizer christians that had sold out their own people and heritage to positions of authority, then they lead a violent crusade against christians that didn't agree with their theology, then they set that theology in stone and made the holy roman empire and the catholic church that made a habit of the practice.


Wasn't brainwashing, but not exactly a history for christians to be proud of.



You can find me on facebook as Markus Van Rijn, if you friend me just mention you're from VGchartz and who you are here.

Oh yeah, constantine and his new christian order was very deragotory towards pagan religions refering to them as  "outmoded illusions" and "misguided rites", but he didn't have the power to outright destroy paganism, so he merely took satisfaction in robbing pagan temples and telling pagans how stupid and useless their religions were.

The peaceful rise of christianity.

 

Edit: Ironically, constantine did still engage in a number of pagan practices himself, and even continued to try and incorporate pagan practices into christianity. All the while trying to quell rival christian theologies, and slander/rob pagans.  Not a history to brag about or wear as a badge of honor.



You can find me on facebook as Markus Van Rijn, if you friend me just mention you're from VGchartz and who you are here.

I hit no on the poll, just because the justice system is broken does not mean you can just go out and extract revenge on people, that makes you no better than them. If you don't like the system, reform it.



"with great power, comes great responsibility."

sapphi_snake said:
pizzahut451 said:
sapphi_snake said:
pizzahut451 said:


So you are saying the Christians used violence on Romans? Yeah, that makes sense considering the size and power of Roman Empire back than... And you should know that by conquering the Empreror, Christianity conquerered Rome.  And sorry to dissapoint you, but religion ws a HUGE deal to people back than, probably one of the most important factors of daily life back than. The Jupiter was Roman most prasied God, and they all rejected him and accepted the true God. And do you mind ansvering this question, why did an Empreror turned Christian when  his Empire haunted christians down for decades? It must have been because of the evil christian bastrds brainwashig him, right? It couldnt possibly be that he actually enlightend by our religion. 

 

Your second paragraph is straight up pointless, i wasnt arguing waht other christians did, just that the Christianity conquerd Rome without using violence.

I'd go with the brainwashing part, as cults are known to do that. Too bad there were no deprogramming experts back then.

Anyways, Christians were persectued back then because they often refused to fight in the military, and they did not awknoledge that the Emepror was a god (something which gave the Emperor legitimacy in the eyes of the people). Of course people back the were superstitious, and when Constantine thoght that he recieved help from "God" when he won a battle, he decided to give special favor to Christianity (the whole legitimacy issue would be solved in the future, by sayin things like "the King/Emperor was sent by God to rule over the Empire/Kingdom" nonsense). People only converted to get in the Emperor's good graces, not because they found the religion "enlightning". And eventually, when Christianity was declared the official religion, pagans were persected, killed, their places of whorship were destroyed etc.

Wow, ok, im gonna stop arguing right now after i read that bolded part...wow. Did you hear yourself when you typed that?

EDIT: BTW, just to collapse your 2nd paragraph, Emperor wasn't considerd a God in Rome back than, Jupiter was. People thought that Emperor wa put in his position by God, not that he was God himself

I stand by my frist paragraph. It was most likely brainwashing by a cult. Nothing too amazing. Happens today too. As I said, shame tehre were no deprogramming experts back then.

As for my second paragraph, the Romans worshipped many gods, not just Jupiter (they were polytheists after all, though you seem to be forgetting that). The Emperor was also worshipped as a god (as part of the Imperial cult), something that the Romans borrowed fron the Egyptians. This is one of the main reasons that Christians were persecuted: not worshipping the Emperor as if he were a god meant denying his legitimacy, and was considered treason. Christian kings were the ones who said that they were put in their positions by God.

Than i really have nothing to say to you anymore



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The_vagabond7 said:

I have no idea where this conversation went, as I just clicked on the last page, but to those wondering why rome accepted christianity after torturing and murdering christians, it wasn't brainwashing, or a peaceful grassroots movement. It was a combination of dumb luck, religious intolerance, and time.

 

The romans were polytheists, believed in many many gods. The emporer Constantine before going into the battle of the milvian bridge was looking for a god to pray to in order to bring good luck in the fight. He went with the christian god, painted crosses on the sheilds of his soldiers and prayed to Yahweh. Then he won the fight, praises be to Jah.

To celebrate he said that all religions were acceptable for romans (thus stopping persecution towards christians), returned property and churches to christians, and then he himself converted to christianity. And we all know the christian view of non christian religions. Under him temples to roman gods became christians temples, and christians started to be placed in high places in the roman government. Namely these were christians that had been "traditors", or traitorous christians that handed over christian documents to be burned and sold out other christians to the romans back before Constantine had converted himself.

 He believed that there needed to be a christian orthodoxy that all christians abided by, which lead to him leading a christian army to slaughter a different sect of christians (the donatists that labeled the traditors heretics) that were not part of christian orthodoxy (there goes the whole "conquered rome without violence" theory). This was probably the first instance of christian on christian violence. This also lead to the first council of Nicaea which eventually leads to the holy roman empire and the catholic church, and christianity as we know it today.

 

So there. Rome converted to christianity because an emperor chose one out of a thousand deities to aid him in battle, won, converted to christianity, promoted a group of traitorous roman sympathizer christians that had sold out their own people and heritage to positions of authority, then they lead a violent crusade against christians that didn't agree with their theology, then they set that theology in stone and made the holy roman empire and the catholic church that made a habit of the practice.


Wasn't brainwashing, but not exactly a history for christians to be proud of.

So are you saying that Constantine was incredibly stupid for changing his fate because he needed someone to help him in battle, or that he was enlightned by our God and accepted Christianity as the only true religion?

EDIT. These links explain the story quite well

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_early_Christianity

http://www.allaboutreligion.org/history-of-christianity-in-rome-faq.htm

http://www.oppapers.com/essays/Why-Romans-Convert-Christianity/182873

 



Tony_Stark said:

I hit no on the poll, just because the justice system is broken does not mean you can just go out and extract revenge on people, that makes you no better than them. If you don't like the system, reform it.

Can't be done, personally I think cops need to shoot child killers and other such horrible beings during the arrest and just say they saw him reaching for a weapon, it's alot better then them going free because their lawyers suppress evidence 



Anyway, most of the links support your story, but they tell a lot more than you did. He didnt choose christianity because ''he needed a deity to worship'', there is some more to tell beyond that. Also, it was actually Theodous , who came much later, in 385, that made Christianity official and compulsory.



I know what the links say, I've read all about the history of christianity. It isn't flattering. Constantine didn't need a deity to worship, he had plenty. It was just chance that he ended up going with Yahweh. If he had decided to go with visions of Mars we'd all be martians now, and christianity would be an odd historical footnote. 

 And trying to claim that the christian god was a part of rome becoming a christian empire isn't at all flattering to yahweh, or Jesus. It would imply that he installed a pagan emperor to spearhead his proselytizing initiative  by assisting him in a violent war, convincing him of his power, then he installed the most vile and traitorous of the christians to seats of power, having them violently act out against those that called them out on being traitors to god, then lead to a period of integrating paganism into christianity before installing one of the most powerful, violent and racist organizations in history to have them spend centuries waging brutally violent torturous wars to spread teachings of his grace and love, and also his intense hatred of various groups. I'm failing to see where this is a PR win for the judeo-christian god or jesus.



You can find me on facebook as Markus Van Rijn, if you friend me just mention you're from VGchartz and who you are here.

Holy crap, other than the wikipedia link the links you provided are so slanted it's not even funny. The last one I don't have an account to read the whole thing, but it paints rome as practically begging for christianity because other religions were just so awful, and the other on "all about religions" completely skips over everything that actually happened and just talked about how the christians were persecuted intellectuals, and then poof! The romans accepted christianity. Nothing about the traditors, the donatists, the milvian bridge, notta. Those aren't links to history they are history light for christians that want their religion potrayed in a good light.

 

Edit: And the wikipedia link isn't even for the relevant period of christian history. That was covering the period before they blew up in the roman empire. For a more relevant section covering the fourth century onward refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_late_ancient_Christianity



You can find me on facebook as Markus Van Rijn, if you friend me just mention you're from VGchartz and who you are here.