By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Sony - Sony's latest attack on customer freedom

Euphoria14 on 21 January 2011
dharh said:
Euphoria14 said:
dharh said:

He stole and distributed intellectual property imo.

Modding hardware per se is not necessarily an offense. Selling/buying the means to do so is illegal. Using the mod to use pirated software is illegal.

Id actually be happy with a completely open system run on open source software. Though that would also _require_ console software to switch over to the PC model where software often 'phones' home and uses authentication keys to validate their authenticity for network usage. And even then you get very shitty multiplayer experiences with bots and hacks all over the bloody place.

What im happy with and whats _legal_ are not necessarily the same thing. You can argue for your utopia all you want, doesn't make it especially legal.

Which IP?

XMB? 

So we never technically own the PS3?

 

If so and they wish to go this route I would have no issues if they didn't charge us hundreds of dollars to get something we don't own.

Please go learn how IP laws work.

You do not have the right to distribute the means for others to hack systems. You do not have the right to distribute software you do not own.

You do _not_ own the software that runs the PS3. You own _a_ PS3 that happens to have the software on it. You own an instance of it. You can argue that you have the right to modify said software to do things it was originaly not intended to do. But, again, you do not then have the right to distribute said software to others and/or its modifications.

SONY's OS doesn't have to be modified to allow the use of homebrew and/or pirated software.

People just use the keys to sign their own software.

 

I also understand what you are saying about Geohot and that the main focus is his distribution of a custom firmware. However he was being labelled as a thief and I am pretty sure that under the "law", what he did is not theft. 

Is it theft or infringement?

 

Do you support the homewbrew community? Just asking.



iPhone = Great gaming device. Don't agree? Who cares, because you're wrong.

Currently playing:

Final Fantasy VI (iOS), Final Fantasy: Record Keeper (iOS) & Dragon Quest V (iOS)     

    

Got a retro room? Post it here!

Around the Network
dharh on 21 January 2011
Euphoria14 said:
dharh said:

Please go learn how IP laws work.

You do not have the right to distribute the means for others to hack systems. You do not have the right to distribute software you do not own.

You do _not_ own the software that runs the PS3. You own _a_ PS3 that happens to have the software on it. You own an instance of it. You can argue that you have the right to modify said software to do things it was originaly not intended to do. But, again, you do not then have the right to distribute said software to others and/or its modifications.

SONY's OS doesn't have to be modified to allow the use of homebrew and/or pirated software.

People just use the keys to sign their own software.

Geohot had to dig into the software to get the keys. He then distributed said info. People are now using said info to do both legal and illegal things.



A warrior keeps death on the mind from the moment of their first breath to the moment of their last.
Squilliam on 21 January 2011
kowenicki said:

Right I haven't been following this situation.  Can someone summarise the problem?

Is the PS3 and PSN unusually vulnerable in this hack?  Has Sony unwittingly left a gaping hole in their security which could compromise the whole network?  Is this any worse than the 360 situation?  If not then what is all the fuss about?... just patch and wait then patch again... no?

Essentially this is what happened, every PS3 can read the firmware and decrypt it with the public key to install it. Hackers gained access to the public key when they hacked the system. Thats ok though because the public key is meant to be out in the open and therefore it's vulnerability is accounted for. With the public key the hackers could take Sony's firmware apart and decrypt it and study it but they couldn't put it back together and create custom firmware. What Geohot did was find the private key of Sony. Now hackers can take PS3 firmware apart, modify it and then resign it as if they were Sony to be accepted by any PS3.

 



Tease.

Euphoria14 on 21 January 2011
dharh said:
Euphoria14 said:
dharh said:

Please go learn how IP laws work.

You do not have the right to distribute the means for others to hack systems. You do not have the right to distribute software you do not own.

You do _not_ own the software that runs the PS3. You own _a_ PS3 that happens to have the software on it. You own an instance of it. You can argue that you have the right to modify said software to do things it was originaly not intended to do. But, again, you do not then have the right to distribute said software to others and/or its modifications.

SONY's OS doesn't have to be modified to allow the use of homebrew and/or pirated software.

People just use the keys to sign their own software.

Geohot had to dig into the software to get the keys. He then distributed said info. People are now using said info to do both legal and illegal things.


So did he commit theft or infringement?

You keep calling him a thief but I just can't see it.



iPhone = Great gaming device. Don't agree? Who cares, because you're wrong.

Currently playing:

Final Fantasy VI (iOS), Final Fantasy: Record Keeper (iOS) & Dragon Quest V (iOS)     

    

Got a retro room? Post it here!

Squilliam on 21 January 2011
dharh said:
Squilliam said:

How does Microsoft's security or claimed lack thereof negatively effect users in a comparable way? The same applies to Nintendo since the majority of the effects are localised to particular Wii's for homebrew or piracy. You can't easily go out and buy an Xbox 360 which is hackable to nearly the same extent because it is restricted to specific older models which haven't been updated. You can buy any PS3 you want and gain the same priveledge Sony has, you can even write software which will work on any PS3 ever created. So this is definately not comparable.

When you say Sony screwed up, you have it partially wrong. They screwed up in proportion to the size of the titans in SOTC. Getting the most important 100 lines of security code wrong and having other security assumptions compound the problem further is extremely problematic. The hackers being assholes doesn't really matter because what is done is done. What you think of what they did doesn't really matter. For better or worse the PS3 is becoming an open system which comes with benefits and problems. PC = PS3 in many respects now.

Since the wii essentially has the weakest online presense, yeah sure the wii's hackability has little effect on the collective wii base other than the loss of revenue due to pirates.

X360 is about half and half but ultimately no different than the PS3. Online games are hackable, you can use bots, the online experience for these games can be unplayable due to those factors. No different than the PS3 atm. 

No arguments again for your second paragraph. i don't give a crap about quibling about 'how large sony screwed up'.

The difference between the Xbox 360 and PS3 here are thus:

1. Microsoft actually actively moderates Xbox Live. It is part of what you pay for with the subscription.

2. It is early days for the hack, wait another 3 months and ask if it is comparable.



Tease.

Around the Network
dharh on 21 January 2011
Euphoria14 said:
dharh said:
Euphoria14 said:

SONY's OS doesn't have to be modified to allow the use of homebrew and/or pirated software.

People just use the keys to sign their own software.

Geohot had to dig into the software to get the keys. He then distributed said info. People are now using said info to do both legal and illegal things.


So did he commit theft or infringement?

You keep calling him a thief but I just can't see it.


Meh whatever. He 'infringed' the software and 'stole' the keys.



A warrior keeps death on the mind from the moment of their first breath to the moment of their last.
Euphoria14 on 21 January 2011
dharh said:
Euphoria14 said:
dharh said:
Euphoria14 said:

SONY's OS doesn't have to be modified to allow the use of homebrew and/or pirated software.

People just use the keys to sign their own software.

Geohot had to dig into the software to get the keys. He then distributed said info. People are now using said info to do both legal and illegal things.


So did he commit theft or infringement?

You keep calling him a thief but I just can't see it.


Meh whatever. He 'infringed' the software and 'stole' the keys.

Hey man, you told me to go learn laws and I hit you back with laws that state your stance on him being a thief is wrong. 

It's all fair game.

The keys also are not owned since they are only numbers. I am pretty sure people have tried that case before and each time lost the case. He stole nothing.

 

SONY can go ahead and take him to small claims court. No way they are going to win this battle.



iPhone = Great gaming device. Don't agree? Who cares, because you're wrong.

Currently playing:

Final Fantasy VI (iOS), Final Fantasy: Record Keeper (iOS) & Dragon Quest V (iOS)     

    

Got a retro room? Post it here!

dharh on 21 January 2011
Euphoria14 said:
dharh said:


Meh whatever. He 'infringed' the software and 'stole' the keys.

Hey man, you told me to go learn laws and I hit you back with laws that state your stance on him being a thief is wrong.

It's all fair game.

 

SONY can go ahead and take him to small claims court. No way they are going to win this battle.


I said IMO. I still think he is a thief. You can't change that.

SONY can most definitely win with an infringment lawsuit, that is if they take it to the right court, which they havn't as of yet I believe, hence the reason the judge is wondering if they even have jurisdiction.

SONY might lose. In the end what we are going to get is the same model found on PCs.



A warrior keeps death on the mind from the moment of their first breath to the moment of their last.
Squilliam on 21 January 2011
kowenicki said:
Squilliam said:

Essentially this is what happened, every PS3 can read the firmware and decrypt it with the public key to install it. Hackers gained access to the public key when they hacked the system. Thats ok though because the public key is meant to be out in the open and therefore it's vulnerability is accounted for. With the public key the hackers could take Sony's firmware apart and decrypt it and study it but they couldn't put it back together and create custom firmware. What Geohot did was find the private key of Sony. Now hackers can take PS3 firmware apart, modify it and then resign it as if they were Sony to be accepted by any PS3.

 

Well explained... and I'm guessing that means a whole lot of problems.... i.e. there is no way to stop this without rendering every PS3 sold thus far unusable?

As far as I can tell, after reading through the tech thread on B3D.com I say theres no real practical way thats obvious on the outside. So yes there probably isn't anything Sony can do about it. The best they can possibly do is a new hardware revision, however if its coming it'd probably be another year away at best.



Tease.

twesterm on 21 January 2011
M.U.G.E.N said:

this is getting tiring. mods should just start locking up the crazy amount of hacking related threads in the sony forums.


Only if we can do the same thing a next big game comes out.

Seriously, it's news, get over it.  Unless you don't care if I bitch and moan about the sony forums being covered with Killzone 3 threads and get them all locked then there's no reason you should bitch and moan there are threads about this subject.

While it didn't bring much new to light, I did think it was an interesting read.