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Forums - Microsoft - Sony: Kinect is a bunch of tech problems

Well, I did a little research and outside of taping aluminum foil to my chest, I couldn't find a material that fooled the depth sensing camera.  I pulled out every pair of jeans I could find.  I can't say I have any really shiny ones, but my girlfriend's had a little sheen to them.

For clearity, a black to white bitmap scale is returned to specify depth.  Black being infinite depth, white being no depth, and everything in-between (grey) having a depth in space.

What I did find was expected:

plastic bottles of water: black

empty glass cups: black

empty glass bottles: black

single pain glass: transparent

every pair of jeans in the house: grey

Every fabric in the house: grey

I figured since I didn't have any really shiny jeans, I would try different materials over jeans.  I used plastic Saran wrap, wax paper and aluminum foil.  Only the aluminum foil appeared black, when it was reflecting the light away from the sensor at more than a 45 degree angle, as would a mirror.  However as the aluminum foil was used more and lost it's smooth surface, it became less likely to reflect the IR away since it was no longer reflecting the projected IR dot away so it could not be picked up by the sensor.

So unless you are wearing jeans with a chrome finish, I have high confidence that denim jeans will not affect the Kinect's depth sensor.



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Nice work :)



"All you need in life is ignorance and confidence; then success is sure." - Mark Twain

"..." - Gordon Freeman

noslodecoy said:

Well, I did a little research and outside of taping aluminum foil to my chest, I couldn't find a material that fooled the depth sensing camera.  I pulled out every pair of jeans I could find.  I can't say I have any really shiny ones, but my girlfriend's had a little sheen to them.

For clearity, a black to white bitmap scale is returned to specify depth.  Black being infinite depth, white being no depth, and everything in-between (grey) having a depth in space.

What I did find was expected:

plastic bottles of water: black

empty glass cups: black

empty glass bottles: black

single pain glass: transparent

every pair of jeans in the house: grey

Every fabric in the house: grey

I figured since I didn't have any really shiny jeans, I would try different materials over jeans.  I used plastic Saran wrap, wax paper and aluminum foil.  Only the aluminum foil appeared black, when it was reflecting the light away from the sensor at more than a 45 degree angle, as would a mirror.  However as the aluminum foil was used more and lost it's smooth surface, it became less likely to reflect the IR away since it was no longer reflecting the projected IR dot away so it could not be picked up by the sensor.

So unless you are wearing jeans with a chrome finish, I have high confidence that denim jeans will not affect the Kinect's depth sensor.


Glad someone did this. I haven't had any problems with clothes yet with my kinect.



Dr.Grass said:
ROBOTECHHEAVEN said:

that guy is a pure a$$hole and doesnt suprise me he is talking trash about kinect. 


It strikes me as odd that people call him an asshole for giving tech and business arguments as to why Sony didn't go something like Kinect. I found the article very interesting and it deepened my understanding of the videogame industry. He doesn't seem te be putting Kinect down unnecessarily at all - it's just a frank discussion.

I would welcome a discussion like this from a MS or Ninty tech guy explaining why they did what they did. Ultimately, the big three have all done well, so I don't think you should get so pissed off.

Are people not allowed to say negative things anymore?

NOPE, all positive talk! or your out of here! ;)

You should now how positive it is in blogs, it's always peachy.



thranx said:
noslodecoy said:

Well, I did a little research and outside of taping aluminum foil to my chest, I couldn't find a material that fooled the depth sensing camera.  I pulled out every pair of jeans I could find.  I can't say I have any really shiny ones, but my girlfriend's had a little sheen to them.

For clearity, a black to white bitmap scale is returned to specify depth.  Black being infinite depth, white being no depth, and everything in-between (grey) having a depth in space.

What I did find was expected:

plastic bottles of water: black

empty glass cups: black

empty glass bottles: black

single pain glass: transparent

every pair of jeans in the house: grey

Every fabric in the house: grey

I figured since I didn't have any really shiny jeans, I would try different materials over jeans.  I used plastic Saran wrap, wax paper and aluminum foil.  Only the aluminum foil appeared black, when it was reflecting the light away from the sensor at more than a 45 degree angle, as would a mirror.  However as the aluminum foil was used more and lost it's smooth surface, it became less likely to reflect the IR away since it was no longer reflecting the projected IR dot away so it could not be picked up by the sensor.

So unless you are wearing jeans with a chrome finish, I have high confidence that denim jeans will not affect the Kinect's depth sensor.


Glad someone did this. I haven't had any problems with clothes yet with my kinect.

I will try a space suit, let you know how it goes.



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i don't know about you.... but i did notice a hudge difference between the games.... i just have the kinect adventure game in full so far but DLed all the kinect demo available.... and kinect adventure looks to me like a tech demo, joy ride tracks better (probably because it doesn't care about the legs) dance central tracks better (maybe because more points are obviously tracked) and the fitness evolved looks to me like it's the one traking the best (less latency) so to me it looks likes that software plays a lot in that equation.... maybe richer environement doesn't allorw to allocate enough resources to traking... but in any case it's a fresh tech like fore graphics... devs will find a way to suck more out of kinect with less resource consuption over the time... it won't be perfect... but sony can brag all they want move is an update of eyetoy, PS3 is their 3rd console... from that prospective MS is blowing them out of the water by miles.... in all logic the 3rd console from MS will have a motion system better than kinect from launch.... or soon after

 

anyway I mostly use kinect for espn.... just the XBox replay command makes my world when watching sports with my friends :D



From my experience, working at Best Buy in the games section, and having ample time to play with these things--and having to reset and recalibrate them fairly often so customers can use them--all I can say is they both have their wonkiness and issues.  Move requires way more calibration than either the Wii Remote/Motion Plus or Kinect.  Kinect's reaction time isn't perfect, but it's mostly a side-effect of the in-store display model I've used.  It'd doesn't do so well recalibrating every few minutes to different sizes of people.  It manages, but isn't perfect.  Plus, in a big, open store, there are a lot of distractions for the camera. 

At least Microsoft thought outside the box and tried something other than directly ripping of Nintendo. 

The thing I don't get about Move is, if the camera can see those glowing balls so well, why does it need any calibration at all?  Why can't it adjust on the fly?  And menu navigation with the thing is asinine.



Resident_Hazard said:

From my experience, working at Best Buy in the games section, and having ample time to play with these things--and having to reset and recalibrate them fairly often so customers can use them--all I can say is they both have their wonkiness and issues.  Move requires way more calibration than either the Wii Remote/Motion Plus or Kinect.  Kinect's reaction time isn't perfect, but it's mostly a side-effect of the in-store display model I've used.  It'd doesn't do so well recalibrating every few minutes to different sizes of people.  It manages, but isn't perfect.  Plus, in a big, open store, there are a lot of distractions for the camera. 

At least Microsoft thought outside the box and tried something other than directly ripping of Nintendo. 

The thing I don't get about Move is, if the camera can see those glowing balls so well, why does it need any calibration at all?  Why can't it adjust on the fly?  And menu navigation with the thing is asinine.


I'm guessing here since I don't have Move but from what I've seen and read I think the calibration in many cases has to do with figuring out Move's relation to YOU as opposed to Move's relation to space.  Since the camera is not really tracking your body it doesn't know how long your arms are, for instance, or where your body is in relation to the wands. 

So, for example, you have situations like The Fight: Lights Out.  When you throw a punch you bring your arm right back and then extend your arm fully to deliver the punch and the game needs to interpolate this motion and animate the characters.  The problem is, how does it know you've fully extended your arm?  Or that you pulled your arm all the way back?  Without calibration to your body dimensions it has no way of really knowing this.  I think that's why the controls for that game in particular don't work well for a lot of people, especially when the calibration is off.  

The same would hold true for something like archery in Sports Champions, it needs to know when your arm is locked forward as far as it will go, and when your other hand has been brought all the way back to your ear.  I know I had similar problems with this in Wii Sports Resort, you could compensate a bit for the game but often in archery I had to draw back my arm further than I should have had to in order to get full tension on the bowsting.

As I said, that's a guess but I don't think I'm too far off.



daroamer said:
Resident_Hazard said:

From my experience, working at Best Buy in the games section, and having ample time to play with these things--and having to reset and recalibrate them fairly often so customers can use them--all I can say is they both have their wonkiness and issues.  Move requires way more calibration than either the Wii Remote/Motion Plus or Kinect.  Kinect's reaction time isn't perfect, but it's mostly a side-effect of the in-store display model I've used.  It'd doesn't do so well recalibrating every few minutes to different sizes of people.  It manages, but isn't perfect.  Plus, in a big, open store, there are a lot of distractions for the camera. 

At least Microsoft thought outside the box and tried something other than directly ripping of Nintendo. 

The thing I don't get about Move is, if the camera can see those glowing balls so well, why does it need any calibration at all?  Why can't it adjust on the fly?  And menu navigation with the thing is asinine.


I'm guessing here since I don't have Move but from what I've seen and read I think the calibration in many cases has to do with figuring out Move's relation to YOU as opposed to Move's relation to space.  Since the camera is not really tracking your body it doesn't know how long your arms are, for instance, or where your body is in relation to the wands. 

So, for example, you have situations like The Fight: Lights Out.  When you throw a punch you bring your arm right back and then extend your arm fully to deliver the punch and the game needs to interpolate this motion and animate the characters.  The problem is, how does it know you've fully extended your arm?  Or that you pulled your arm all the way back?  Without calibration to your body dimensions it has no way of really knowing this.  I think that's why the controls for that game in particular don't work well for a lot of people, especially when the calibration is off.  

The same would hold true for something like archery in Sports Champions, it needs to know when your arm is locked forward as far as it will go, and when your other hand has been brought all the way back to your ear.  I know I had similar problems with this in Wii Sports Resort, you could compensate a bit for the game but often in archery I had to draw back my arm further than I should have had to in order to get full tension on the bowsting.

As I said, that's a guess but I don't think I'm too far off.

I'm really not sure what the issue is, but I do know it needs to be calibrated every single time it's used.  And I set it up at work so customers don't have to hassle with it.  Hold the controller by your shoulder, press button.  Hold by hip, press button.  Hold at belt buckle/midsection, press button.  Every time.  Wii Motion Plus?  Set controller upside down on a flat surface for a couple seconds and it's good to go. 

I won't dismiss that it has to do with the controller's relation to the user, but it's so much more finnicky than the relative ease of Wii Motion Plus or Kinect.  Give Kinect a couple seconds and it detects you and you're fine.  When Move is being used, the movement isn't too bad, but going by the sports game it comes with, it's still far from perfect.  Frankly, I feel that Sony's frisbee game with Move is inferior to what Nintendo put out when they launched Motion Plus with Wii Sports Resort.  That frisbee game still feels far more natural.

None of the motion control methods is without their issues, but I think that after four years on the market, Microsoft and Sony should both have been able to come up with something truly superior to the Wii Remote, and by and large--they didn't.  At least Microsoft was thinking outside the box, rather than directly copying Nintendo.  I like that. 



This just further shows that Sony are cowards and hypocrites by discrediting everything every other company does and then later utilizing that same technology and calling it brilliant.