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Forums - General - Three Israelis lynched on way to a pub

Rath said:

@Killiana. The only reasons the Palestinians don't have a state is because all of their land was occupied and is slowly being annexed by Israel. The Palestinian people have lived in those lands for centuries, they are not a bunch of foreigners who have recently moved in trying to claim the land. That statement applies far more to the Israeli settlers who are illegally (under international law) settling  the West Bank and East Jerusalem in an attempt to claim the promised land.

My main gripe with Israel is those settlements, it is a blatant attempt to annex land which in no way or form belongs to them.

This gets back to who was there first, which is a pointless argument as your history date starts a lot earlier in history than mine. You want to take it back 200 years; I want to take it back to the time before Jesus Christ. We will not reach agreement on this point.

As for these Palestinians being annexed out of their historical lands, can you point to any news article that shows that these Palestinians have deeds and legal documents to back up their claims? As far as I see it, if they have no documentation that this "land" was theirs, then they have no right to it other than that which they can take militarily.

Militarily, the Middle East has not been very successful against Israel. Hell, the last time they all coordinated against Israel in 1967, the Six-Day War, Israel gained more land militarily than the week before. Seeing as how the status quo has not changed, my money would be on Israel if another Six-Day War ensued.



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Rath said:
Kasz216 said:

Can you even have a gripe with them over that?  I think that some settlements NEED to be kept.

Think about it this way.  You and someone else are having a disupute about some money.  A third party creates a settlement.   You agree... the other person gets his friends and tries to take all the money by force.

You and your friends win.

What are the chances now that you want to go through with it as listed?

Maybe it's me, but if you go against a proposed deal and then declare war... you should lose at least some of what you had.

Just letting people declare war and then get what they had coming anyway is just a REALLY bad precedent.

There are several points that are wrong in this post.

1) Punitive measures after wars cause trouble. Think Treaty of Versailles, which is a good deal less severe than annexing land.

 

2) Annexing land is blatantly against international law

"The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies."

That's part of the Fourth Geneva Convention.

 

3) Even is you accept that some sort of punishment is necessary for the six day war, don't you think depriving the Palestinians of nationhood for fifty something years is punishment enough without also annexing half of what little land they have left

 

4) It's arguable as to whether the Arabs are fully to blame for the six day war. Certainly both sides were gearing up for war for a while and the Israelis were the ones who (very cleverly) struck first by attacking the Egyptian air force. Or even before that by attacking the city of As-Samu.

 

Also, the international community is well against you on this one. Even America under George Bush was against the settlements.

I don't see the international community fielding a military to stop Israel. As the winners say, "Put up or shut up." The international community has done neither and their screeds of "Israel is violating international law" is about as informative and pleasing as a 6 year old throwing a tantrum over wanting 3 cookies instead of 2 cookies.

Like it or not, those who are strong (by strong I mean who has the best-trained, best equipped, and largest military) dictates matters over scarce resources such as land. It doesn't make their cause "right" or "just" by any means, but it is what it is. Warfare has had a more lasting impact on history than any peace movement, conglomeration of weak countries screeding "Your violating international law," and any international law.

I learned before the 11th grade a law that cannot be enforced is nothing more than words on paper. Thusforth, I have not been surprised over the UN being ineffectual in enforcing international law against a country like Israel.



Doobie_wop said:
Chairman-Mao said:
deskpro2k3 said:
Chairman-Mao said:
deskpro2k3 said:

this used to happen in America too.


What's that got to do with anything?


You'll be surprised.


Why don't you be more specific instead of wasting my time?

I think his trying to say that it's a problem that's exclusive to that region. Discrimination attacks happen in first world countries as well, in Australia for example, 5,000 people gathered together and started a riot against the Lebanese community, bashing anyone that looked middle eastern and marching through the streets calling for middle eastern extermination and pretty much being blatantly racist ( a few radio hosts and political figures joined in as well).

My cousin and his friends had been leaving a party a few months ago and they were bashed close to death by a local football team, pretty much because my cousin and his friends are Lebanese. These kind of attacks happen all the time, it's obviously going to be worst in that part of the world, but it isn't something exclusive to that region.

That's what I think he meant anyway.

That was a reaction against years of increasing violence by Middle Easterners in Australia.

Something you see far too seldom in the West because they're letting their own people get raped.



I'm not even going to post a proper response to those last two posts. I'll simply say that in the modern age I don't believe that greater military might gives any legal or moral rights to land. It may practically allow Israel to occupy and annex land, but in reality if they do that then quite simply they should not be surprised our outraged when guerilla movements and terrorism is targeted towards them.



Rath said:

I'm not even going to post a proper response to those last two posts. I'll simply say that in the modern age I don't believe that greater military might gives any legal or moral rights to land. It may practically allow Israel to occupy and annex land, but in reality if they do that then quite simply they should not be surprised our outraged when guerilla movements and terrorism is targeted towards them.


Shouldn't it be targetted towards the military and government in that case? And not elementary schools, restaurants, shopping malls, civilian homes etc etc?



Bet with Dr.A.Peter.Nintendo that Super Mario Galaxy 2 won't sell 15 million copies up to six months after it's release, the winner will get Avatar control for a week and signature control for a month.

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RageBot said:
Rath said:

I'm not even going to post a proper response to those last two posts. I'll simply say that in the modern age I don't believe that greater military might gives any legal or moral rights to land. It may practically allow Israel to occupy and annex land, but in reality if they do that then quite simply they should not be surprised our outraged when guerilla movements and terrorism is targeted towards them.


Shouldn't it be targetted towards the military and government in that case? And not elementary schools, restaurants, shopping malls, civilian homes etc etc?

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not claiming that the Palestinian suicide bombings, rocket attacks and terrorism are a good thing, they're truly awful, evil and only make a bad situation worse for everybody.

I'm just saying that it's hardly an outcome the Israelis can be surprised or outraged at.



Slimebeast said:
Doobie_wop said:
Chairman-Mao said:
deskpro2k3 said:
Chairman-Mao said:
deskpro2k3 said:

this used to happen in America too.


What's that got to do with anything?


You'll be surprised.


Why don't you be more specific instead of wasting my time?

I think his trying to say that it's a problem that's exclusive to that region. Discrimination attacks happen in first world countries as well, in Australia for example, 5,000 people gathered together and started a riot against the Lebanese community, bashing anyone that looked middle eastern and marching through the streets calling for middle eastern extermination and pretty much being blatantly racist ( a few radio hosts and political figures joined in as well).

My cousin and his friends had been leaving a party a few months ago and they were bashed close to death by a local football team, pretty much because my cousin and his friends are Lebanese. These kind of attacks happen all the time, it's obviously going to be worst in that part of the world, but it isn't something exclusive to that region.

That's what I think he meant anyway.

That was a reaction against years of increasing violence by Middle Easterners in Australia.

Something you see far too seldom in the West because they're letting their own people get raped.

The actions of a few thugs doesn't warrant a 5,000 strong riot, which involved the bashing of many people. The Lebanese community was always treated like shit in Sydney, people had to go to beaches and parks in groups, because they were scared they were going to get bashed by Australian elitists back in the 80's and early 90's. When you've been involved in enough attacks like the one my cousin was in, you'd be willing to flex some muscles as well. I've been the victim of the same type of discrimination, I've got a scar on the back of my head, because some Aussie guy decided that it'd be funny to hit that Lebanese kid with a cricket bat.

Australia has some serious issues when it comes to racism and discrimination, I've had friends commit suicide, been bashed and abused based on their background. My parents went through the same thing back in their day, but no one cares, we have a negative stereotype placed on us and it's easier for people to stay ignorant about us, instead of actually learning about the people. Indians, Vietnamese, Greeks and Macedonians went through a similar situation. It only depends on what's 'in' in Australia, 15 years ago it was Greeks, 10 years ago it was Vietnamese, 5 years ago it was Lebanese and now it's Indians. These things shouldn't be happening in a first world country. 

Your rape comment is also inappropriate. Australians have the highest rape count in the country, but that doesn't make for interesting news, instead they find the 5 rape cases out of 10,000 that involve a person of a different background, make that headline news and it gathers more hits. I find it extremely offensive when I open a newspaper and see two rape cases, one of them lists the description of the character as a Muslim, Middle Eastern man, with a wide brow,dark skin, born in Iran, from the suburb of Springsvale and so on. The other rapist is just described as a young troublemaker and that's it, then as soon as you do a bit of research, you find out it was a young Australian guy who has returned to school after raping a mentally handicapped girl. 

I classify myself as an Australian, but the original 'settlers' classify themselves as the only true Australians. It's hard to make friends, when everyone's spitting in your eye. I'm sorry for going so far off topic, but you shouldn't comment on things you don't know about.



Bet with Conegamer and AussieGecko that the PS3 will have more exclusives in 2011 than the Wii or 360... or something.

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I don't know who chose the word lynching for this story, but it's so offensively inacurate I can hardly explain the disgust I'm feeling.  As bad as that situation was, it was nothing compared to a true lynching.  Nothing at all in comparison.  Whoever would call that a lynching is a sick fuck with no understanding of American history whatsoever.

 

A lynching is a public execution carried out by a mob - these people didn't die.

In the historical context, lynchings were a celebrated occasion for opressors over opressees - for better or worse the Israelis have virtually all of the power over there.

Lynchings were completely overlooked by the government in power - Israel won't over look this.

 

This is so far from an actual lynching that it disgusts me to see it discribed as one.



You do not have the right to never be offended.

ChichiriMuyo said:

I don't know who chose the word lynching for this story, but it's so offensively inacurate I can hardly explain the disgust I'm feeling.  As bad as that situation was, it was nothing compared to a true lynching.  Nothing at all in comparison.  Whoever would call that a lynching is a sick fuck with no understanding of American history whatsoever.

 

A lynching is a public execution carried out by a mob - these people didn't die.

In the historical context, lynchings were a celebrated occasion for opressors over opressees - for better or worse the Israelis have virtually all of the power over there.

Lynchings were completely overlooked by the government in power - Israel won't over look this.

 

This is so far from an actual lynching that it disgusts me to see it discribed as one.


It was without a doubt an attempted lynching. The word may carry a lot of weight, but it does have a defined meaning. It's an extrajudicial execution carried out by a mob, which is what these people were attempting to do.

Also lynching isn't exclusive to America, yes America did have an awful history of lynchings but many lynchings have occured in many other countries.



Doobie_wop said:
Slimebeast said:
Doobie_wop said:
Chairman-Mao said:
deskpro2k3 said:
Chairman-Mao said:
deskpro2k3 said:

this used to happen in America too.


What's that got to do with anything?


You'll be surprised.


Why don't you be more specific instead of wasting my time?

I think his trying to say that it's a problem that's exclusive to that region. Discrimination attacks happen in first world countries as well, in Australia for example, 5,000 people gathered together and started a riot against the Lebanese community, bashing anyone that looked middle eastern and marching through the streets calling for middle eastern extermination and pretty much being blatantly racist ( a few radio hosts and political figures joined in as well).

My cousin and his friends had been leaving a party a few months ago and they were bashed close to death by a local football team, pretty much because my cousin and his friends are Lebanese. These kind of attacks happen all the time, it's obviously going to be worst in that part of the world, but it isn't something exclusive to that region.

That's what I think he meant anyway.

That was a reaction against years of increasing violence by Middle Easterners in Australia.

Something you see far too seldom in the West because they're letting their own people get raped.

The actions of a few thugs doesn't warrant a 5,000 strong riot, which involved the bashing of many people. The Lebanese community was always treated like shit in Sydney, people had to go to beaches and parks in groups, because they were scared they were going to get bashed by Australian elitists back in the 80's and early 90's. When you've been involved in enough attacks like the one my cousin was in, you'd be willing to flex some muscles as well. I've been the victim of the same type of discrimination, I've got a scar on the back of my head, because some Aussie guy decided that it'd be funny to hit that Lebanese kid with a cricket bat.

Australia has some serious issues when it comes to racism and discrimination, I've had friends commit suicide, been bashed and abused based on their background. My parents went through the same thing back in their day, but no one cares, we have a negative stereotype placed on us and it's easier for people to stay ignorant about us, instead of actually learning about the people. Indians, Vietnamese, Greeks and Macedonians went through a similar situation. It only depends on what's 'in' in Australia, 15 years ago it was Greeks, 10 years ago it was Vietnamese, 5 years ago it was Lebanese and now it's Indians. These things shouldn't be happening in a first world country. 

Your rape comment is also inappropriate. Australians have the highest rape count in the country, but that doesn't make for interesting news, instead they find the 5 rape cases out of 10,000 that involve a person of a different background, make that headline news and it gathers more hits. I find it extremely offensive when I open a newspaper and see two rape cases, one of them lists the description of the character as a Muslim, Middle Eastern man, with a wide brow,dark skin, born in Iran, from the suburb of Springsvale and so on. The other rapist is just described as a young troublemaker and that's it, then as soon as you do a bit of research, you find out it was a young Australian guy who has returned to school after raping a mentally handicapped girl. 

I classify myself as an Australian, but the original 'settlers' classify themselves as the only true Australians. It's hard to make friends, when everyone's spitting in your eye. I'm sorry for going so far off topic, but you shouldn't comment on things you don't know about.

This doesn't sound like Australia you are describing. Maybe Greece or Italy (countries with tougher attitude towards against immigrants) but not a country like Australia.