scottie said:
Killiana1a said:
As for Creationism, all I have to cite is the 1st Amendment of the US Constitution, which Delaware Senate candidate Christine O'Donnell did not know until very recently:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
-US Constitution, 1st Amendment
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I did say that I didn't want this to turn into an atheist vs theist debate of any description. So I shall just say this on the matter and then move on. there's lots of juicy science for me to respond to when I'm less tired :)
The complaint that evolutionists have with creationists is not that they believe in creationism (generalisations ahoy :P)
If creationism is taught as science in a government funded school, then that violates separation of church and state, which most Athiests/Agnostics see as a vital part of a democracy.
As a basic summary of the majoirty belief amongst agnostics
Believe in Creationism = Go nuts
Share said beliefs with adults and politely try to convince them that your way is right = your right as long as you don't mind if they do the same to you
Teach said beliefs as science to your own children = probably not really your right but we know when to pick our battles and we know we wont win this one.
Teach said beliefs to other peoples children when their parents would wish them to have a secular or other upbringing = definitely not on and is infringing upon the rights of said children, and described by the bit of the constitution that you just quoted up there ^
Obviously, anyone who does actually try to prevent you from believing what you want to believe is a dickhead, but the majority of us agnostics aren't actually all that bad :) And I hope I didn't offend you with the OP, I can end up insulting people without realising it at times, my point was just that generally discussion about the anthropic principle is pretty meaningless if you believe in a creator - it is tantamount to asking why God happened to be smart enough to make a livable universe, which (I spose I don't need to tell you) is not going to lead to a very long conversation.
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No offense taken as I am starting to lean atheist myself. No offense taken.
I agree, creationism or intelligent design is a front for religion with a modicum of science to back it up. It has no place in public schools.
Regarding teachers teaching children values and ideas separate from what their parents one is a tricky question. In the town I live in, a highly regarded teacher was let go because she was teaching her students tolerance and their parents were gravely offended of her poster of Harvey Milk hanging behind her desk. She lasted two years before the parents put enough pressure on administration to fire her or else they would move half her class to another school crippling the funding for school and affecting many more students than their own children with teacher positions being terminated to make up for the lack of funding.
In this sense, those who are paying into the public school system (parents with a job who pay taxes) have a lot, and should have a lot of say in what the curriculum (approved by the school board) is for their children. The public school system is not self-funded through tuition and fees. It is funded by local and state taxpayer mostly with Federal funds to make up the minor differences (more Federal funding in poorer school districts), thus those the buck stops at the tax payer parents.
Argue it all you want, but the public school system is not self-funded. Each school needs to know the community better than the community knows themselves and develop curriculum that is consistent with the values of the community. If communities in the US South elect school board members who approve of teaching Creationism then so be it because the community who are majority funding the schools deem it so. Likewise, if the community in Harlem wants to teach Black Power and Malcolm X, then so be it because the Harlem community is majority funding the public schools.
The ultimate decision comes down to who is funding the system most. If the Federal Government is shown to provide the most school funding, then the curriculum should reflect the values of US as a whole with strict US Constitutional limits on Creationism.
