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Forums - General Discussion - Belief in God produces Hell on Earth

mrs.nordlead on 14 October 2010
gergroy said:
mrs.nordlead said:
ok, so, i havent read a lot of what has been written because i have a baby crawling all over me, but one think i did read that i just wanted to comment on was the statement about Christian conservatives are  rumored  by liberals to be linked admiring Hitler...being a conservative christian and having a grandmother who survived the holocaust( being in dachu for 3 years), this really ticked me off and is so far from the truth...hitler was an atheist who believed in evolution and felt that cretin races where not fully "evolved". his actions where done to create a superior, fully evolved. it is the belief of evolution that leads to the disregard to human life and that is what leads to things such as genocide.
the reason for war is peoples sin, plane and simple...i dont have time to say anything more at the moment, but  maybe i will later...i miss coming on and speaking my mind and seeing what everyone is saying about things. the only person i get to talk to during the day is 10 months old, and he always agrees with me :D

lol, I'm sure you don't always agree.  What if the 10 month old wants to be held and you don't want to hold him/her?  There's a disagreement right there :)

hahaa, i guess thats true...i cant even say that he doesnt argue back, but in his own little way he does(has a definite mind of his own at such a young age)...well, nordlead always agrees with me, he doesnt have a choice :D



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kowhoho on 14 October 2010
gergroy said:
mrstickball said:

So what about Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot?

Ideologies which have large power bases are the problem, not religions per-se. Look at those that were not religious that held great sway in politics - Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and many others did some dastardly things, none of which were in the name of any god, but in the name of their political ideologies. I'd venture to say that those four combined killed more men and women than any person has in the name of religion.

One could list many of the beliefs of secularists over the past century or two, and come to the conclusion there is a lot of evil in any ideology if it is used to undermine those that they believe are societal ills.

On the other end, I could cite all the great things Christians have done for humanity. It has been a major force for hospitals, food banks, poverty relief, and humanitarian aid over the centuries.

In the end, power breeds corruption and abuse. The more power an ideology has over free thinking people, the more damage it can cause, as it will hurt the minorities that do not adhere to the majority view. This is expecially true when the ideology devalues the life of humans, which has been the case with some ideologies.

This pretty much sums up how I feel.  Religion on its own is not bad.  It is actually a very good thing, teaching people morals and to treat one another with respect and dignity.  It's people that can be corrupted and can use bits and pieces of an ideology to help fuel an agenda.  

Not saying that religious persecution doesn't happen, because it does.  Myself being a Mormon I'm well aware that religions are persecuted by people of other religions.  However, I don't really blame other religions for the persecution, I blame the people that do it.  

I don't think it's ever really a good idea to "teach" morals. What one considers common sense may seem ludicrous to someone else. In cases of childhood indoctrination, a child leads the same spiritual and political life as their parents. "I'm a Christian and I vote republican because my parents do." And no, that isn't hyperbole. I've heard people in my school say those exact words when prompted.

Teach a child logic and they can come to their own conclusion. We can learn morality simply by observing the interactions between people in our lives and the consequences of our actions.



I survived the Apocalyps3

Smidlee on 14 October 2010
kowhoho said:
gergroy said:
mrstickball said:

So what about Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot?

Ideologies which have large power bases are the problem, not religions per-se. Look at those that were not religious that held great sway in politics - Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and many others did some dastardly things, none of which were in the name of any god, but in the name of their political ideologies. I'd venture to say that those four combined killed more men and women than any person has in the name of religion.

One could list many of the beliefs of secularists over the past century or two, and come to the conclusion there is a lot of evil in any ideology if it is used to undermine those that they believe are societal ills.

On the other end, I could cite all the great things Christians have done for humanity. It has been a major force for hospitals, food banks, poverty relief, and humanitarian aid over the centuries.

In the end, power breeds corruption and abuse. The more power an ideology has over free thinking people, the more damage it can cause, as it will hurt the minorities that do not adhere to the majority view. This is expecially true when the ideology devalues the life of humans, which has been the case with some ideologies.

This pretty much sums up how I feel.  Religion on its own is not bad.  It is actually a very good thing, teaching people morals and to treat one another with respect and dignity.  It's people that can be corrupted and can use bits and pieces of an ideology to help fuel an agenda.  

Not saying that religious persecution doesn't happen, because it does.  Myself being a Mormon I'm well aware that religions are persecuted by people of other religions.  However, I don't really blame other religions for the persecution, I blame the people that do it.  

I don't think it's ever really a good idea to "teach" morals. What one considers common sense may seem ludicrous to someone else. In cases of childhood indoctrination, a child leads the same spiritual and political life as their parents. "I'm a Christian and I vote republican because my parents do." And no, that isn't hyperbole. I've heard people in my school say those exact words when prompted.

Teach a child logic and they can come to their own conclusion. We can learn morality simply by observing the interactions between people in our lives and the consequences of our actions.

War is logical, as it kills people and logically we need a lot of people dead.  It can be argued tha logically we need the weak to  die to make room for the strong.... thus logic can be very dangerous to use to guide morality.



kowhoho on 14 October 2010
Smidlee said:
kowhoho said:
gergroy said:
mrstickball said:

So what about Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot?

Ideologies which have large power bases are the problem, not religions per-se. Look at those that were not religious that held great sway in politics - Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and many others did some dastardly things, none of which were in the name of any god, but in the name of their political ideologies. I'd venture to say that those four combined killed more men and women than any person has in the name of religion.

One could list many of the beliefs of secularists over the past century or two, and come to the conclusion there is a lot of evil in any ideology if it is used to undermine those that they believe are societal ills.

On the other end, I could cite all the great things Christians have done for humanity. It has been a major force for hospitals, food banks, poverty relief, and humanitarian aid over the centuries.

In the end, power breeds corruption and abuse. The more power an ideology has over free thinking people, the more damage it can cause, as it will hurt the minorities that do not adhere to the majority view. This is expecially true when the ideology devalues the life of humans, which has been the case with some ideologies.

This pretty much sums up how I feel.  Religion on its own is not bad.  It is actually a very good thing, teaching people morals and to treat one another with respect and dignity.  It's people that can be corrupted and can use bits and pieces of an ideology to help fuel an agenda.  

Not saying that religious persecution doesn't happen, because it does.  Myself being a Mormon I'm well aware that religions are persecuted by people of other religions.  However, I don't really blame other religions for the persecution, I blame the people that do it.  

I don't think it's ever really a good idea to "teach" morals. What one considers common sense may seem ludicrous to someone else. In cases of childhood indoctrination, a child leads the same spiritual and political life as their parents. "I'm a Christian and I vote republican because my parents do." And no, that isn't hyperbole. I've heard people in my school say those exact words when prompted.

Teach a child logic and they can come to their own conclusion. We can learn morality simply by observing the interactions between people in our lives and the consequences of our actions.

War is logical, as it kills people and logically we need a lot of people dead.  It can be argued tha logically we need the weak to  die to make room for the strong.... thus logic can be very dangerous to use to guide morality.

I hate that people don't think science or logic have a part to play in how we actually lead our personal lives. There are answers out there, to all our questions!

How is war "logical?" We are a social species which must work together to survive. Therefore logically we can do just about whatever the hell we want unless it hurts others. Nobody has gotten to wear they are in their successes purely on their own. The truth doesn't hurt, whatever it is. It's always better to seek it out on your own than it is for someone to simply tell you, "lying is bad." If you honestly never told a lie, never flattered someone or humored them for their sake, where would you be and where would they be? They would have suffered far more.

Once you realize wer'e a social species everthing gets easier from there! :D



I survived the Apocalyps3

Smidlee on 14 October 2010
kowhoho said:
Smidlee said:
kowhoho said:
gergroy said:
mrstickball said:

So what about Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot?

Ideologies which have large power bases are the problem, not religions per-se. Look at those that were not religious that held great sway in politics - Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and many others did some dastardly things, none of which were in the name of any god, but in the name of their political ideologies. I'd venture to say that those four combined killed more men and women than any person has in the name of religion.

One could list many of the beliefs of secularists over the past century or two, and come to the conclusion there is a lot of evil in any ideology if it is used to undermine those that they believe are societal ills.

On the other end, I could cite all the great things Christians have done for humanity. It has been a major force for hospitals, food banks, poverty relief, and humanitarian aid over the centuries.

In the end, power breeds corruption and abuse. The more power an ideology has over free thinking people, the more damage it can cause, as it will hurt the minorities that do not adhere to the majority view. This is expecially true when the ideology devalues the life of humans, which has been the case with some ideologies.

This pretty much sums up how I feel.  Religion on its own is not bad.  It is actually a very good thing, teaching people morals and to treat one another with respect and dignity.  It's people that can be corrupted and can use bits and pieces of an ideology to help fuel an agenda.  

Not saying that religious persecution doesn't happen, because it does.  Myself being a Mormon I'm well aware that religions are persecuted by people of other religions.  However, I don't really blame other religions for the persecution, I blame the people that do it.  

I don't think it's ever really a good idea to "teach" morals. What one considers common sense may seem ludicrous to someone else. In cases of childhood indoctrination, a child leads the same spiritual and political life as their parents. "I'm a Christian and I vote republican because my parents do." And no, that isn't hyperbole. I've heard people in my school say those exact words when prompted.

Teach a child logic and they can come to their own conclusion. We can learn morality simply by observing the interactions between people in our lives and the consequences of our actions.

War is logical, as it kills people and logically we need a lot of people dead.  It can be argued tha logically we need the weak to  die to make room for the strong.... thus logic can be very dangerous to use to guide morality.

I hate that people don't think science or logic have a part to play in how we actually lead our personal lives. There are answers out there, to all our questions!

How is war "logical?" We are a social species which must work together to survive. Therefore logically we can do just about whatever the hell we want unless it hurts others. Nobody has gotten to wear they are in their successes purely on their own. The truth doesn't hurt, whatever it is. It's always better to seek it out on your own than it is for someone to simply tell you, "lying is bad." If you honestly never told a lie, never flattered someone or humored them for their sake, where would you be and where would they be? They would have suffered far more.

Once you realize wer'e a social species everthing gets easier from there! :D

 Logic and science plays a huge role in war.  War even advances science so they are a lot more connected than most want to believe.

 "truth doesn't hurt"- really?



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kowhoho on 14 October 2010
Smidlee said:
kowhoho said:
Smidlee said:
kowhoho said:
gergroy said:
mrstickball said:

So what about Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot?

Ideologies which have large power bases are the problem, not religions per-se. Look at those that were not religious that held great sway in politics - Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and many others did some dastardly things, none of which were in the name of any god, but in the name of their political ideologies. I'd venture to say that those four combined killed more men and women than any person has in the name of religion.

One could list many of the beliefs of secularists over the past century or two, and come to the conclusion there is a lot of evil in any ideology if it is used to undermine those that they believe are societal ills.

On the other end, I could cite all the great things Christians have done for humanity. It has been a major force for hospitals, food banks, poverty relief, and humanitarian aid over the centuries.

In the end, power breeds corruption and abuse. The more power an ideology has over free thinking people, the more damage it can cause, as it will hurt the minorities that do not adhere to the majority view. This is expecially true when the ideology devalues the life of humans, which has been the case with some ideologies.

This pretty much sums up how I feel.  Religion on its own is not bad.  It is actually a very good thing, teaching people morals and to treat one another with respect and dignity.  It's people that can be corrupted and can use bits and pieces of an ideology to help fuel an agenda.  

Not saying that religious persecution doesn't happen, because it does.  Myself being a Mormon I'm well aware that religions are persecuted by people of other religions.  However, I don't really blame other religions for the persecution, I blame the people that do it.  

I don't think it's ever really a good idea to "teach" morals. What one considers common sense may seem ludicrous to someone else. In cases of childhood indoctrination, a child leads the same spiritual and political life as their parents. "I'm a Christian and I vote republican because my parents do." And no, that isn't hyperbole. I've heard people in my school say those exact words when prompted.

Teach a child logic and they can come to their own conclusion. We can learn morality simply by observing the interactions between people in our lives and the consequences of our actions.

War is logical, as it kills people and logically we need a lot of people dead.  It can be argued tha logically we need the weak to  die to make room for the strong.... thus logic can be very dangerous to use to guide morality.

I hate that people don't think science or logic have a part to play in how we actually lead our personal lives. There are answers out there, to all our questions!

How is war "logical?" We are a social species which must work together to survive. Therefore logically we can do just about whatever the hell we want unless it hurts others. Nobody has gotten to wear they are in their successes purely on their own. The truth doesn't hurt, whatever it is. It's always better to seek it out on your own than it is for someone to simply tell you, "lying is bad." If you honestly never told a lie, never flattered someone or humored them for their sake, where would you be and where would they be? They would have suffered far more.

Once you realize wer'e a social species everthing gets easier from there! :D

 Logic and science plays a huge role in war.  War even advances science so they are a lot more connected than most want to believe.

 "truth doesn't hurt"- really?

Dude, we advance scientifically in many different ways than just war. I can't see how you can argue it as being inherently necessary in our developement.Good things have come from war, but that doesn't make it necessary. Give me a real, logical contention to the absolute necessity of war other than its potential benefits.

And yes, the truth doesn't hurt! Why would you choose to subscribe to false hopes when you could know how the world really works? Is that so hard to understand?



I survived the Apocalyps3

flagship on 14 October 2010

Great idea! Without religion people revert back to killing each other for far more meaningful things, like: land, money power and women.

 



kowhoho on 14 October 2010

Ok, the title is a fairly tunnel-visioned and sensationalist one, but what thread title isn't?

Religion is but one influence on people's lives, be it positive or negative or somewhere in between. Critical thinking is a wonderful remedy to most of these influences, I would say.



I survived the Apocalyps3

raptors11 on 14 October 2010
VXIII said:

Through out history all of the wars have been fought because of people themselves, they could just use any excuse to do it .

The religion is just a mean to do it . well , I have a gun , when I put a bullet in someone's head you can blame the gun all you want , after all if there wasn't a gun no one would have been killed .

Imagin ... a world without weapons :D


Guns don't kill people. I kill people...with guns



FaRmLaNd on 14 October 2010

Religion like all ideologies based on extreme levels of certainty, whilst not being the cause of human suffering certainly does not help the situation. As a tool of manipulation it (along with nationalism) is one of the most powerful tools to get the masses doing what you want, good or bad.

To reduce the religions impact on government by promoting the separation of church and state is the only logical step forward if we're to live in societies that have multiple religions and non-believers living together. Any step towards sectarianism will simply embolden the majority theology and potentially lead to not only the chrushing of secularists and atheists but also minority religions when push comes to shove.

Better to reduce its impact on society as much as possible, at least in regards to how easy it is for a religion to overtly manipulate the masses. Keep it private and separate from government I say!