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Forums - General - Federal minimum wage is unconstitutional

HappySqurriel said:
Farmageddon said:
HappySqurriel said:

The lower classes are far better off today than in any point in history because technology has reduced the amount of labour required to produce the goods and services that are considered necessities.

As for how far back you have to go ... In most western countries the expansion of government entitlement programs happened primarily through the 60s and 70s.

About technology, and mainly production, as a reason, I completelly agree.

But look at work conditions before the 60s and 70s. It was almost slavery. I'm not one for lots of taxes and all that (I'm brazilian, we have asinine tax levels around), but I do think some of it, if well spent, can help spread the goods a little bit on a basic level without taxing better off people too much. Now of course I agree with you that assistencialist programs can backfire, so I think it's more about how much you collect and how you spend it then getting rid of the idea altogheter.

Slavery?

In relative terms, a household earning the median income has probably never been as well off as they were in the 1950 ...

I meant about work conditions, but I guess your post above does make sense nowadays, but it's hard to tell.

I just don't think relative terms matter that much. Still, I think I mostly agree with you, in a sense.



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HappySqurriel said:
Farmageddon said:
HappySqurriel said:
Farmageddon said:
HappySqurriel said:

Consider how these programs work in reality, and realize that they do not benefit the people that they're supposed to help. An individual who is on welfare tends to lack the education and experience that is needed to get a job to cover their cost of living, and welfare ensures that they will never receive this education or experience and ensures that they remain in poverty and dependant on the government. Food stamps act as a subsidy to employers who do not pay their employees well, as a cost to employers who pay their employees a living wage, and eliminate the benefit of paying an appropriate wage; and the net result is they eliminate well paying jobs in favour of jobs that pay poorly. Rental subsidies encourage landlords to increase their rents until the people who receive the subsidy are no better off, while the cost of rent for everyone who doesn't receive the subsidy tends to increase.

Basically, compare and contrast the money spent trying to improve outcomes in most nations and observe that (in spite of ever increasing social spending) outcomes have remained the same or gotten worse ...

 

With that said, if you go back before the government tried to manipulate the economy (to the extent they do today) and you will find that the vast majority of individuals were able to meet their (and their family's) basic needs by trading goods or services they provided to other individuals. The most likely outcome of reducing taxes to individuals while eliminating social spending would be an increase in demand for goods and services that could be provided by the individuals who were no longer supported by the government. A household might look for someone to provide cooking or cleaning services, an out of shape individual might look for a personal trainer, or a middle aged individual might look for a care-giver for their aging parents; and this is not an all inclusive list of the potential jobs that would be created.

About the bold, how far back is that?

As far as I see, as imperfect as this world is, the lower classes (I mean globaly, sure there may be local exceptions) are far better off than at just about any other point in history. Sure one can argue why that is and to which extend the States have been actually helping or not, but still.

The lower classes are far better off today than in any point in history because technology has reduced the amount of labour required to produce the goods and services that are considered necessities.

As for how far back you have to go ... In most western countries the expansion of government entitlement programs happened primarily through the 60s and 70s.

About technology, and mainly production, as a reason, I completelly agree.

But look at work conditions before the 60s and 70s. It was almost slavery. I'm not one for lots of taxes and all that (I'm brazilian, we have asinine tax levels around), but I do think some of it, if well spent, can help spread the goods a little bit on a basic level without taxing better off people too much. Now of course I agree with you that assistencialist programs can backfire, so I think it's more about how much you collect and how you spend it then getting rid of the idea altogheter.

Slavery?

In relative terms, a household earning the median income has probably never been as well off as they were in the 1950 ...

Median incomes based on national GDP which includes all the company transactions generating the majority of income/revenue for a nation. Super rich multinational companies revenue privately owned by rich elites distort the median income much? Some leading economists from different schools: Austrian, Keynesian, Chicago, etc refute the use of GDP being used for the measurement of median income. 



ManusJustus said:
whatever said:

I guess we should throw out the 40 hour work week, vacation, and sick pay.  Just get rid of all these worker's rights that are a hinderance to large corporations.

We've come so far in the past 100 years, its unimaginable that people actually want to throw our rights away.

Agreed, it's an all out assault on worker's rights that began under Reagan and has continued unabated to this day.  Doesn't matter if a Republican or Democrat is in the white house.  People just don't know how bad working conditions were in the early 1900's.  It's really sad.



Mr Khan said:

There are certain amendments that need to be overturned, but not the ones from 1865 onward...


And which ones would those be?



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hmmm.. I should have lots of kids to make them work for me.

just kidding. haha



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http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article23255.html

"In a global economy, where U.S. workers are forced to compete with Chinese workers who make less than $1 an hour, the jobs outsourced to countries like China and India are not returning.

Equally, while the United States is exporting high-paying jobs, the nation is importing an underclass across open borders, providing additional pressure on salaries and benefits in lower-paying jobs.

Inevitably, the cycle of poverty deepens as the economic downturn reduces job opportunities and forces more of the middle class into poverty.

The tragedy is that those pushed into poverty are likely to stay there, as Democrats continue to propose big government solutions, unable or unwilling to admit that increased taxes destroy jobs every bit as much as government-funded welfare programs perpetuate poverty."

Globalisation has crippled middle class America and increased poverty. America can not compete with workers in China/Asia that have armies of slave labourers and disregards human rights and civil liberties. So long as it is making the multinational companies rich all in the name of free trade "shock" economic policies and economic rationalisation. China pays workers a paltry slave wage of $0.60 per hour. Vietnam pays its workers $0.26 per hour. Starvation slave labour wages and Asian nations exploit child labourers.

The end of the Cold War and the falling of the Berlin Wall has sped up globalisation and the collapse of the middle class. Heading towards two class system: rich and poor.  Dark Ages all over again? 



mrstickball said:

I agree with him.

It'd be an incredible world if the government didn't take 30% of everyones income. Imagine the living standards of the poor and middle class that had far less taxation.

Ultimately, major spending such as the mentioned (health care, pensions, ect) should be dealt with from a state or personal level. Many of the programs the government has that were listed (Medicaid/care, social security, ect) are utter failures, which cost much more than equivilent private programs.


Exactly! They would be much easier to oversee if they were broke up by state, county or city. To bad everything has to all or none. And if one state was balloning out of effect it could be seen.



Well a income tax and social security were unconstitutional.

SS is a pay as you go system. In other words there is not proof that a dollar in is a dollar out. Because of this you are paying for someone else based on the currently known limit to SS.

ie. A later retirement date to give time for the current work force to pay for your retirement.

Because of this your grand children will be paying for your sins as anyone who is currently working is paying for the sins of the ones retired now.

The part that makes it unconstitutional though is that you are forced to pay it by law.

Generational Tyranny in the end.

As for income tax, it's a shady prospect, it always was. I have a foggy memory of the history I just remember a few politicians wanting to put one in but Americans rejected it due to the similarity with a monorchial taxation.

The end result is that it was passed in like 1910 I forget how but I remember getting a shady vibe from reading the bio's of the men involved in the decision. It shouldnt have to be said but the income tax wasn't brought in for the betterment of the American people.

IF income tax relieved property taxes and so on then it would be in favor of the people to relinquish 30% of their income.



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This guy must think we are living in the 18th or 19th century: we hope he is not serious. Maybe he is trolling for media attention with controversial policies. 

Social regress and reverse evolution: America could adopt the human rights and economic policies of China. Would the American people accept going back to a draconian society that does not respect human rights and civil liberties?

No minimum wages in Asian like: China, North Korea  and Vietnam. etc. Child slave labourers work for lower wages than adult workers. No trial in China and no legal representation. China has an impressive record on human rights- right? 



Kasz216 said:
The Ghost of RubangB said:

Hahahahha, I came in here expecting an argument that the federal minimum wage was too LOW because it isn't actually a living wage.

Look at it this way: if you work a minimum wage job, THANK YOUR GOVERNMENT.  What that means is: that job would love to pay you less, but the government won't let them, because the government understands that without people who are alive, there will be crazy revolutions.  And people fought for that right.  It's called progress.

I didn't expect the crazy argument that "all progress is bad, because the constitution didn't say 'things could get better.'"  You know what else isn't in the constitution?  Rights for women, blacks, gays, children, or pretty much anybody that isn't a white male landowner.  So we had 2 options: amend the constitution, or burn it and start over.  Luckily we chose the former, and here we are, still getting better very slowly.

What's with farms not having to pay minimium wage anyway?  I mean that's one reason we have so much illegal immigration anyway.

Nobody wants to pick beans at 2 dollars an hour when you get paid more to not work.

I have no idea whose idea that was or what their logic was, but I've got a hunch it was bullshit.

Many states pay foodservers less than minimum wage too.  They figure "hey, you get tips, so uh... fuck you, you're getting half or a third of minimum wage, and you better hope you make the difference in tips, and if you have a bad day where you don't get too many tips, well, fuck off and die."  Luckily I'm in California where that's illegal.