By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Gaming - Why third party core games fail(ed) on the Wii

Er, I'd say "Wii fans" are long past acceptance at this point.  I know I foolishly expected publishers and analysts to simply follow the mainstream market rather than continually betting against it, like they did with NES, PlayStation and DS, and for whatever reason, that didn't happen.  Too bad, so sad, better luck next gen everyone.



Around the Network

I think the biggest reason the games have failed is because they are seen as dumbed down versions of their HD counterparts. 

Dead Space for example saw a huge graphics decline and was stuck as an on rails shooter. Both major declines for the HD Version even if the game was still very good.  

Call of Duty World at War Major graphics downgrade, and no online serious hurt this game compared to the HD versions. Yet it was pretty good shooter especially for the Wii and did break 1 million.

Add in the fact that many of the best 3rd party games are just not on the Wii and it is easy to see why people call it a failure.



The thing is, for all their groaning, publishers don't seem to be doing that badly by focusing on the HD twins. We are, in fact, going through something of a core gaming renaissance, with new IPs being regularly introduced and performing pretty damn well without so much as shaking a stick in the Wii's direction. The reason for this is clear: a core game gains nothing by released on the Wii because that's not where the core gamers are.



Qays said:
jarrod said:
Qays said:
jarrod said:
Qays said:
jarrod said:
Qays said:

" If 3rd parties had simply treated Wii like they treated PS2, they'd be looking at a Wii software market like PS2's for core games today."

I'm really not sure I buy this. The Wii has primitive graphics, primitive online, and requires you buy an actual controller separately. I'm not sure how much of the core market it could conceivably have captured with those kinds of handicaps.

PS2 had primitive graphics, primitive online and (like it or not) the Wii remote plus nunchuk is an "actual controller", and is honestly capable of handling most modern genres fine.  All the indications were there early on for a strong core market, especially with games like Red Steel and RE4 far surpassing sales expectations.

Basically, 3rd parties shat the bed with shovelware and spinoffs, and now they're stuck with a super casual mainstream Wii marketplace that they've basically poisoned themselves with, a base that really only trusts Nintendo's brand.

You're seriously comparing the graphics differential between the PS2 and original Xbox to that between the Wii and the HD twins? Seriously? Come on. Online wasn't a prerequisite for the core gamer last generation like it is now.

And it doesn't matter if Wiimote nunchuk is "honestly capable of handling most genres fine". Core gamers don't like it. That is what we're talking about, isn't it? The reason why the Wii has failed to win over the core?

No, I'm comparing Wii to PS2.  Graphics certainly help, but "core gamers" are bit more diversified than the "graphics whores" subset.  Otherwise DS wouldn't have destroyed PSP.

And online is still a comparative niche for gaming, even though it's grown tremendously in the past 3 generations.  It's going to become even more central next gen, but as of now the installed online base is likely still a small fraction of the overall base for dedicated game machines.

You'll have to qualify "core gamers don't like it".  I mean Nintendo's top "core games" still outsell almost everyone else's regardless of platform.  The reason Wii never held on to the core market (and there was plenty of adoption early on), is because development for core content never shifted over to it, for various reasons.  The controller really has little to do with that too, the problems reach more into industry expectations and resource priorities/allocations from before the Wii was even on shelves.  The market shifted faster than the industry at large adapted, and now the industry's playing catch up.

Graphics help to sway core gamers, and they help more the bigger the graphics differential is. The difference between PS2 and Xbox wasn't that great, certainly not big enough to matter to most people. The difference between Wii and the HD twins is huge in comparison.

And I'm pretty sure the working definition of "core gamer" to be used in this thread was defined in the very first post.

Again, DS versus PSP pretty much blows a hole in your theory that online, graphics and traditional interface are what matter most to core gamers.  The simple truth is what actually matters to core gamers is content.  Content is why DS succeeded with the core market over PSP, and content is also why Wii has faltered with the core market versus the combined HD platforms, despite both having basically the same exact hardware differentiations to the competition (inferior graphics, inferior online/storage, new interfaces).

We can argue exactly, why that content never came to Wii, but hardware is just a means to an end, and what really sells game systems always has been (and always will be) the games themselves.  If Wii had gotten the sort of core game support PS2 had, it'd have grown the same sort of core game marketplace PS2 did.  It really is that simple.  Really.

Lol. If Wii had gotten the sort of core game support PS2 had it'd have grown the same sort of core game marketplace. If I were a woman with big tits my tits would be huge. WTF kind of circuitous logic is this. We're talking about the REASON the Wii didn't get the sort of core game support the PS2 did. The reason is that the Wii is, on a basic hardware level, alienating to core gamers. It's like what would happen if Hyundai tried to sell itself to people who are used to driving BMWs and Benzes.

And I'm not sure the situation with handhelds is in any way applicable or relevant to the situation with home consoles. And I'm also not really sure the DS is actually doing all that much better than the PSP when it comes to "core gamers".

It's not circular logic, it's a statement that no, hardware itself doesn't have any intrinsic sales effect.  Games sell hardware, it's always been that way.  Cute, if irrelevant, analogies though.

Other than that, it's nice to see you basically agree with me.  Well, except with your apparent extreme ignorance of handhelds. ;)



Qays said:

The thing is, for all their groaning, publishers don't seem to be doing that badly by focusing on the HD twins. We are, in fact, going through something of a core gaming renaissance, with new IPs being regularly introduced and performing pretty damn well without so much as shaking a stick in the Wii's direction. The reason for this is clear: a core game gains nothing by released on the Wii because that's not where the core gamers are.

Are you kidding me?  There have been more layoffs, buyouts, bankruptcies and closures for developers and publishers in the past 4 years than at any time since the big crash of the early 80s.  Companies now have to target a combined 3 platforms (360, PS3 and sometimes PC) rather than just one, spend up to 10 times what they used to on PS2 for development and promotion (budgets for AAA HD games have reached $100m plus this gen), and they get generally comparable sales as they did on just PS2, at best (most franchises are down really).  Most companies are barely staying afloat this gen, this is what you call a "renaissance"?



Around the Network
jarrod said:
Qays said:
jarrod said:
Qays said:
jarrod said:
Qays said:
jarrod said:
Qays said:

" If 3rd parties had simply treated Wii like they treated PS2, they'd be looking at a Wii software market like PS2's for core games today."

I'm really not sure I buy this. The Wii has primitive graphics, primitive online, and requires you buy an actual controller separately. I'm not sure how much of the core market it could conceivably have captured with those kinds of handicaps.

PS2 had primitive graphics, primitive online and (like it or not) the Wii remote plus nunchuk is an "actual controller", and is honestly capable of handling most modern genres fine.  All the indications were there early on for a strong core market, especially with games like Red Steel and RE4 far surpassing sales expectations.

Basically, 3rd parties shat the bed with shovelware and spinoffs, and now they're stuck with a super casual mainstream Wii marketplace that they've basically poisoned themselves with, a base that really only trusts Nintendo's brand.

You're seriously comparing the graphics differential between the PS2 and original Xbox to that between the Wii and the HD twins? Seriously? Come on. Online wasn't a prerequisite for the core gamer last generation like it is now.

And it doesn't matter if Wiimote nunchuk is "honestly capable of handling most genres fine". Core gamers don't like it. That is what we're talking about, isn't it? The reason why the Wii has failed to win over the core?

No, I'm comparing Wii to PS2.  Graphics certainly help, but "core gamers" are bit more diversified than the "graphics whores" subset.  Otherwise DS wouldn't have destroyed PSP.

And online is still a comparative niche for gaming, even though it's grown tremendously in the past 3 generations.  It's going to become even more central next gen, but as of now the installed online base is likely still a small fraction of the overall base for dedicated game machines.

You'll have to qualify "core gamers don't like it".  I mean Nintendo's top "core games" still outsell almost everyone else's regardless of platform.  The reason Wii never held on to the core market (and there was plenty of adoption early on), is because development for core content never shifted over to it, for various reasons.  The controller really has little to do with that too, the problems reach more into industry expectations and resource priorities/allocations from before the Wii was even on shelves.  The market shifted faster than the industry at large adapted, and now the industry's playing catch up.

Graphics help to sway core gamers, and they help more the bigger the graphics differential is. The difference between PS2 and Xbox wasn't that great, certainly not big enough to matter to most people. The difference between Wii and the HD twins is huge in comparison.

And I'm pretty sure the working definition of "core gamer" to be used in this thread was defined in the very first post.

Again, DS versus PSP pretty much blows a hole in your theory that online, graphics and traditional interface are what matter most to core gamers.  The simple truth is what actually matters to core gamers is content.  Content is why DS succeeded with the core market over PSP, and content is also why Wii has faltered with the core market versus the combined HD platforms, despite both having basically the same exact hardware differentiations to the competition (inferior graphics, inferior online/storage, new interfaces).

We can argue exactly, why that content never came to Wii, but hardware is just a means to an end, and what really sells game systems always has been (and always will be) the games themselves.  If Wii had gotten the sort of core game support PS2 had, it'd have grown the same sort of core game marketplace PS2 did.  It really is that simple.  Really.

Lol. If Wii had gotten the sort of core game support PS2 had it'd have grown the same sort of core game marketplace. If I were a woman with big tits my tits would be huge. WTF kind of circuitous logic is this. We're talking about the REASON the Wii didn't get the sort of core game support the PS2 did. The reason is that the Wii is, on a basic hardware level, alienating to core gamers. It's like what would happen if Hyundai tried to sell itself to people who are used to driving BMWs and Benzes.

And I'm not sure the situation with handhelds is in any way applicable or relevant to the situation with home consoles. And I'm also not really sure the DS is actually doing all that much better than the PSP when it comes to "core gamers".

It's not circular logic, it's a statement that no, hardware itself doesn't have any intrinsic sales effect.  Games sell hardware, it's always been that way.  Cute, if irrelevant, analogies though.

Other than that, it's nice to see you basically agree with me.  Well, except with your apparent extreme ignorance of handhelds. ;)


1. Core gamers are interested in graphics. Core gamers are interested in real controllers. Core gamers are interested in online. These are things that the HD twins have and the Wii (for the most part) does not. Core games were never going to appear in large numbers on the Wii because core gamers just aren't interested in it as a console. Games sell hardware, but hardware is a fundamental prerequisite of selling games.

You seem to be fond of comparing the present generation to the last one, but I'd say you're stopping a generation short: the last generation to have such a tremendous disparity between the capabilities of the main consoles wasn't PS2 vs Xbox/GC - it was PS1 vs N64.

2. The DS is doing better among core gamers than the PSP. But the difference isn't huge - most of the DS's "margin" comes from its appeal to the Blue Ocean crowd, just like the Wii.



Smeags said:
jarrod said:

EA has unquestionably been worse to the Wii base than Activision has.  Just compare/contrast the handling of each with Guitar Hero to Rock Band, COD to Dead Space, Goldeneye to NBA Jam, etc.  For all the shit they get in general (and deservedly so in most cases imo), Activision has at least been pretty decent on DS/Wii, which is more than can be said for EA.  I expect it'll be the same story on 3DS/Wii 2.

Oh absolutely. Activision has (primarily) been one of Wii's most supportive 3rd parties, along with Sega, and (maybe) Ubisoft. Actually, let's take a look on how these 3rd party is doing on the little white box that could.

Activision:
1. Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock (4.42 Million)
2. Guitar Hero: World Tour (3.45 Million)
3. Call of Duty: World at War (1.55 Million)
4. Call of Duty 3 (1.46 Million)
5. Cabela's Big Game Hunter 2010 (1.19 Million)

8 Total Million Sellers on Wii

Sega:
1. Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games (7.64 Million)
2. Mario and Sonic at the WInter Olympic Games (3.47 Million)
3. Sonic and the Secret Rings (2.28 Million)
4. Sonic Unleashed (1.51 Million)
5. Super Monkey Ball: Banana Blitz (1.47 Million)

7 total million sellers on Wii

Ubisoft:
1. Just Dance (4.04 Million)
2. My Fitness Coach (2.09 Million)
3. Rayman Raving Rabbids: T.V. Party (1.79 Million)
4. Rayman Raving Rabbids (1.70 Million)
5. Rayman Raving Rabbids 2 (1.70 Million)

10 total million sellers on Wii

Now let's look at EA:
1. MySims (1.53 Million)
2. Monopoly (1.40 Million)
3. Tiger Woods PGA Tour 08 (1.38 Million)
4. Smarty Pants (1.31 Million)
5. MySims Kingdom (1.21 Million)

7 total million sellers on Wii

I think this list probably illustrates exactly why 3rd party developers aren't using the Wii as a flagship development platform for higher profile, big budget games.

These are the kinds of 3rd party games that the majority of the Wii user base has been buying, which means these are the types of games they'll continue to produce if they want the best chance for commercial success.

It's not necessary to make a big budget game for the Wii that is commercially successful.



jarrod said:
Qays said:

The thing is, for all their groaning, publishers don't seem to be doing that badly by focusing on the HD twins. We are, in fact, going through something of a core gaming renaissance, with new IPs being regularly introduced and performing pretty damn well without so much as shaking a stick in the Wii's direction. The reason for this is clear: a core game gains nothing by released on the Wii because that's not where the core gamers are.

Are you kidding me?  There have been more layoffs, buyouts, bankruptcies and closures for developers and publishers in the past 4 years than at any time since the big crash of the early 80s.  Companies now have to target a combined 3 platforms (360, PS3 and sometimes PC) rather than just one, spend up to 10 times what they used to on PS2 for development and promotion (budgets for AAA HD games have reached $100m plus this gen), and they get generally comparable sales as they did on just PS2, at best (most franchises are down really).  Most companies are barely staying afloat this gen, this is what you call a "renaissance"?

We're seeing consolidation, but none of the big players are in any serious financial trouble. The industry is becoming more efficient because production costs are higher. That's not a bad thing.



Qays said:

1. Core gamers are interested in graphics. Core gamers are interested in real controllers. Core gamers are interested in online. These are things that the HD twins have and the Wii (for the most part) does not. Core games were never going to appear in large numbers on the Wii because core gamers just aren't interested in it as a console. Games sell hardware, but hardware is a fundamental prerequisite of selling games.

You seem to be fond of comparing the present generation to the last one, but I'd say you're stopping a generation short: the last generation to have such a tremendous disparity between the capabilities of the main consoles wasn't PS2 vs Xbox/GC - it was PS1 vs N64.

2. The DS is doing better among core gamers than the PSP. But the difference isn't huge - most of the DS's "margin" comes from its appeal to the Blue Ocean crowd, just like the Wii.

1. You keep saying this, but I'm not really seeing anything that supports it.  The "best graphics" or"best online" or "most traditional controller" has never led to the most active core marketplace before.  And again, DS versus PSP pretty much completely dispels these ideas, otherwise PSP would have steamrolled DS.  The core difference between DS and Wii, is that core content eventually centralized on DS, and their subsequent markets really reflect that.  The DS market became more diversified as a result too, more like NES or PS1 than Wii.

If better graphics, better online and old controls were really what core gamers valued most, they'd have skipped 360 and PS3 entirely, and just kept upgrading their PCs... computers will unquestionably always best dedicated consoles in that regard... so why haven't most "core gamers" given up their consoles yet?

 

2. Not really true, the "core" market is still much stronger on DS, even though it's mainstream titles utterly decimate anything on PSP.  Which is also a result of the sort of content it gets... for a good comparison, just look at a (fairly equivalent) niche game like Puyo Puyo and what it sells on DS versus PSP (or versus Wii actually).



Mr. Fister said:
SaviorX said:

There is no debate.

Ask anyone who isn't a forum dweller and they will tell you...

"I get the Nintendo/Mario games and stuff, but the Wii doesn't really have any good games." - Common person

The 3rd party games are terrible and terribly advertised, period. There are no ifs, ands, or buts about it. 98% of all Wii 3rd party titles have been made by the worst of teams with the worst of intentions.

This is not overexaggeration or hyperbole, it is absolute fact. I've been looking at the Wii getting dicked of good games for 4 years now and this is the inconvenient truth.

3rd parties don't want to support the console. On the PS3/360, they have free reign- Sony & MS first parties presence is fairly minimal so the inmates run the asylum. On the Wii, they would have to actually pull of something somewhat original and not have to rely on graphcial fidelity alone to get their poorly constructed game concepts out there. I own all the consoles and I enjoy every one of them, but all these "hardcore games" that people swear by and jerk off to are just trashy games in shiny clothing.

To end it here I will reiterate, 3rd parties have been near worthless on the Wii. If their games were good, people would buy their games like they buy the Nintendo ones. Name your favorite "AA-AAA" 3rd party Wii games and I can give you the laundry list of careless flaws behind them all.


Normally, I don't like to post stuff that doesn't really add anything, but I think you have the best non-OP post of the thread.


In other words, /topic really.


Thanks, I appreciate it.

EDIT: @greenmedic88

"I think this list probably illustrates exactly why 3rd party developers aren't using the Wii as a flagship development platform for higher profile, big budget games. These are the kinds of 3rd party games that the majority of the Wii user base has been buying...It's not necessary to make a big budget game for the Wii that is commercially successful."

Correction, These are the only type of games 3rd parties have ever attempted making. The only AAA game I saw from them was Monster Hunter 3, and that sold 1.6m and counting. RE4 was a port and that passed 1.7 million. The biggest budget I think a 3rd party has ever allocated for a Wii game is $10m for the original Red Steel; MH3 was probably more, but no number has ever been stated; not like it didn't recoup expenditures in the 1st week of release.

If I've said it once, I've said it 1 million times, you cannot buy videogames that DO NOT EXIST. You cannot buy games you have never heard of. You cannot buy a game no one wants to make.



Leatherhat on July 6th, 2012 3pm. Vita sales:"3 mil for COD 2 mil for AC. Maybe more. "  thehusbo on July 6th, 2012 5pm. Vita sales:"5 mil for COD 2.2 mil for AC."