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Forums - General - Should NATO deploy troops in Mexico?

 

Should NATO deploy troops in Mexico?

Yes, end the drug war 72 60.50%
 
No, let the mexican's keep trying 46 38.66%
 
Total:118
Rath said:
TheLivingShadow said:

...Hmmm...I've been thinking about this...maybe the solution is to legalize drugs?

I don't get why they're illegal in the first place. Sure, they're not good for the people who consume them, but frankly cigarretes and alcohol (in large amounts) aren't either but they are legal. Think about it. What wrong does DRUGS do to society as a whole? Alcohol is legal but not everyone's drunk. Smoking is legal but not everyone is addicted to it. Why are drugs so special?

Even if you think drugs are reall bad things for people, they should be legal because they don't harm people other than the consumers. If they want to get high, it's their choice. If they want to lose their life on a drug, let them be. Banning drugs just makes it look like a desirable thing to do by the youngsters, provokes people to sell them illegally and causes the state to invest in a "war" they should not be making in the first place

Two main reasons in my opinion.

1) Damage to public health. Some drugs are far more damaging to health than either alcohol or tobacco and far more addictive. Heroin is a good example. You can say 'oh they're only damaging themselves' but in reality its the tax payer that foots the bill for their healthcare.

2) Danger to society. Some drugs, for example P (crystal meth) can basically make people into psychopaths. There was a guy in NZ who took a katana to peoples hands while on P...

 

Of course neither of those reasons really cover banning marijuana or ecstacy...


People use drugs regardless. thats why the drug trade exists. By legalizing it we are at least able to make the drugs somewhat safer. The important thing is to keep prices the same. By making them cheaper it may encourage people to use them more frequently. But take all that money as a drug tax and use it for something good. At least that way there will be something positive about the drug problem. Moreover the cartels will cease to exist. America could just produce it domestically or go through separate legitimate suppliers.





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The only real solution would be to stop the prohibition of drugs. But just like it's hard to make people who only read about "killer games" understand that banning killer games does not help stopping shooting rampages, it's hard to make people who are not really familiar with the problem of drugs understand that drug prohibition simply causes more trouble than it solves.

Rath said:

Two main reasons in my opinion.

1) Damage to public health. Some drugs are far more damaging to health than either alcohol or tobacco and far more addictive. Heroin is a good example. You can say 'oh they're only damaging themselves' but in reality its the tax payer that foots the bill for their healthcare.

2) Danger to society. Some drugs, for example P (crystal meth) can basically make people into psychopaths. There was a guy in NZ who took a katana to peoples hands while on P...

Of course neither of those reasons really cover banning marijuana or ecstacy...

I think your arguments are quite typical for people who are for the prohibition of drugs.

Stopping the prohibition of drugs wouldn't mean that drugs aren't a big danger. They are, and in my opinion it's rather ridiculous to think that with drugs legalized lots of people would start taking hard drugs like crystal meth or heroine because of the legalization they think that these drugs are now safe, while for decades they heard how they ruined thousands of peoples lifes.

Even the amount of people taking soft drugs would actually decrease. It's a well known fact that generally speaking the number of drug users in a country is the higher the more strict a country fights drugs. Take the US for example, very hard anti-cannabis laws on the one hand and probably the highest number of cannabis consumers in the whole world on the other hand. And then look at the netherlands: The only country in Europe where cannabis is pretty much legalized, but it has pretty much the lowest percentage of cannabis consumers in all of Europe. Their biggest problem are the many drug tourists who come to netherlands because cannabis is forbidden in their own country.

In practice, most of the problems related to drugs do not come from the drugs themselves, but from the prohibition of drugs. Tenthousands killed in drug wars only because drugs can make huge profits because they're illegal. The biggest problem drug users who fall out of society and start getting criminal have is that they need ridiculous amounts of money because the drugs are so overpriced because of their illegal status. And if you want to take drugs, it's easy to get them, but there's a high chance of getting in contact with criminals and people who are a really bad influence. And there's always the problem of ruining your health because illegal drugs are usually cut with shit you wouldn't really want to consume.

Just like alkohol and cigarettes, drugs are bad, but prohibition is exactly the wrong way to solve the problem. Unfortunately we are probably not going to see a policy soon because drugs being illegal is very important to intelligence services like the CIA.



Why should Nato countries pay for an army to solve problems in Mexico?

 

Mexico should abolish its healthcare to pay for an army that can fix their problematics.

Or they could invest in a nuclear bomb and level the place.



non-gravity said:

Why should Nato countries pay for an army to solve problems in Mexico?

 

Mexico should abolish its healthcare to pay for an army that can fix their problematics.

Or they could invest in a nuclear bomb and level the place.


Napoleon wouldn't be proud of your saying.



pariz said:
non-gravity said:

Why should Nato countries pay for an army to solve problems in Mexico?

 

Mexico should abolish its healthcare to pay for an army that can fix their problematics.

Or they could invest in a nuclear bomb and level the place.


Napoleon wouldn't be proud of your saying.

Napoleon was against drugs?



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Drugs are ok because they're weapon. As long as them are being spread outside of US, Mexico or not, it's fine.



Slimebeast said:
Gnac said:
MrBubbles said:
Gnac said:

The war on drugs is like beating a child for crying. The child will just cry more, and a bad parent will smack it harder.


So keep smacking till it dies and the drugs stop flowing?

I knew someone would type something like this.

The drugs will never stop flowing, since many of them come from naturally occuring sources. The best thing to do is follow Portugal's example.

What did Portugal do?


Legalize the consumption of all drugs. It has lead to a drop in drug use, crimes related to drug consumption,  deaths from consumption, and a fall in drug related HIV contraction. Really a poster boy for the drug legalization campaign.



non-gravity said:
pariz said:
non-gravity said:

Why should Nato countries pay for an army to solve problems in Mexico?

 

Mexico should abolish its healthcare to pay for an army that can fix their problematics.

Or they could invest in a nuclear bomb and level the place.


Napoleon wouldn't be proud of your saying.

Napoleon was against drugs?

No. He was ok about invading other countries under any kind of excuses.



SamuelRSmith said:
Slimebeast said:
Gnac said:
MrBubbles said:
Gnac said:

The war on drugs is like beating a child for crying. The child will just cry more, and a bad parent will smack it harder.


So keep smacking till it dies and the drugs stop flowing?

I knew someone would type something like this.

The drugs will never stop flowing, since many of them come from naturally occuring sources. The best thing to do is follow Portugal's example.

What did Portugal do?


Legalize the consumption of all drugs. It has lead to a drop in drug use, crimes related to drug consumption,  deaths from consumption, and a fall in drug related HIV contraction. Really a poster boy for the drug legalization campaign.

You mean light drugs like marijuana? Or even heroine?

But it's still illegal to sell drugs there, isn't it?



pariz said:
Joelcool7 said:
pariz said:
Rath said:

 

@Pariz. Nothing has changed in Colombia? So much has changed, the state was in an existential crisis. It now has much firmer authority and even the main rebel group, FARC, is being severely beaten now. Also do you really think it's that easy to stop drug smuggling? Trust me, countries have and are trying.

You are right on each and every point. The thing is that I cannot but center my atention on the fact that US military presence persues not only non specifically to fight down the FARC. Not only that: it helps this rebel groups (which in most cases are anti-colonialism of any type) to gain more support from citizenship.


Yes the US military intervention in Columbia has turned alot of people into America haters. But that sentiment is largely outside Columbia itself. I have met pastors and missionaries who have gone to Columbia and they have told me that their is a very large support group for getting rid of the FARC and the people of Columbia love them.

Frankly who cares what some other countries think of North American's when your helping people. Like standing up to a popular bully, yes the kid is popular and when you stick up for the nerd you may not really be appretiated by the popular persons friends. But the victims sure love you and you show everyone else that you stick up for your ideals.

Hugo Chavez and the other anti-american basterds wouldn't really care if America didn't get involved. They would still find some reason to bash North America, just look at their support of Iran due to the Iraq war. Do you honestly believe that if North American countries and western european countries just stood back and let everything spiral out of control that they would be anymore loved by the rest of the world?

Oh and yes the US is only out to serve its interests but can you honestly name a single country that does not value its own interests more then the rest of the world?


 

First of all, something that's necesary to clarify: political interests make a use of ideological speaches. I mistrust a polititian just as soon as he starts speaking, cause it is what he does to try to convince you that a certain course of action is good for you or good for your country or good for humanity when it is a fact that there are some benefits for himself that he's persuing. That's how politics work all around the world, if we don't agree on this, we won't agree on much.

First you talk about ideals (that's just what goverments use in their discourses and what may motivate lots of their citizenship, but not what's really going on) and later you make a statement in form of a question with which I agree: every country, what the... every entity tries to achieve their own interests, even when that's the well being of others.

Then you name Chavez. Chavez is not really representative of the anti american feeling all around Latin America. He's just a polititian making use of a discourse. Making a lot of use and abuse.

I can clearly see you know your stuff and you are well informed, but you should try harder to understand, from different sources, why this anti american feeling spreads all around the rest of America (the continent). You would find it is about ideals: search through history how many times the US acted on the soverign and inner political affairs of many countries, revoking presidents that were choosen legitimately and financing all kinds of anti governamental movements when suited. Try to find out what happened in the first half of XX century and you'll realise that with the right oriented parties and corrupted locals, USA, France and Spain fought for neo colonies in the Caribean and South America, which politically and formaly were independent, with their own flag and anthem, but economically were just colonies in which they secured really cheap raw or source materials.

The rest of the story till our days hasn't being different at all, just more sofisticated.

Being Canadian I am already aware of alot of the anti-american ideologies. I myself am not really pro-american I think the political system is corrupt and that they use everyone. Also Colonization as a Canadian I am simpathetic to the idea of colonization. Of course I am not native american but I am also not British, French,American or Russian (Who colonized Canada). Honestly I love my country and don't mind the colonization. Could be because I myself come from an imigrant family that came to Canada from Holland. But I do understand why South America doesn't particularily like America, Britian , France.

I think South America forgets Russia, who I'd argue did alot more colonial things then America does. Look at Brazil and Cuba, or today with their alliances with Venezuela. Yet most of the complaints are about the USA. Thats what I don't understand why South American's seem to hate the US more then they do Russia who tried to communise south america.

In the end I think Columbia is a great example of what the US could do in Mexico. FARC killings have dropped and the drug trade is in remission. Yes drugs are coming from other countries now but it has been a success in Columbia. Also as I said I know missionaries who have gone to Columia and they have told stories of how much the Columbians love Americans (&Canadians).

Now yes the free trade issue is definatly pissing off south american's and many countries don't like the US's military intervention in Columbia. But the US has definatly succeeded in reducing militant activity. Also Columbia without the US would likely have been invaded by Venezuela. Hugo Chavez deployed massive amounts of troops and fighter jets and weaponry on the border. If the US wasn't their as a deturrent Columbia would have likely been invaded.

Essentially the US intervention in Columbia has helped dampen an insurgency returning some sort of peace and civil order. They have won the hearts and minds of many Columbians and lets not forget they helped prevent a few wars in South America.



-JC7

"In God We Trust - In Games We Play " - Joel Reimer