By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - General - Obama's stimulus will cost more than the entire Iraq war.

Killiana1a on 25 August 2010

I will agree that over a 10 year period time, the effects of Obama's stimulus coupled with Obamacare and Obamafinanreg will push the total cost of the stimulus way up past the $1.5 trillion mark.

As for the costs of the Iraq War, you still have to account for how much the post-war, peacekeeping costs are for those US soldiers and if you are being honest, then you have to account for the costs to keep mercenary groups such as Xe (formerly known as Blackwater) involved.

As for total costs, why don't we include the costs of the Korean War in this debate. Far as I know we still have US troops in Korea (around 30,000), do we include their cost from 1953 until today into the total cost for the Korean War?

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Forces_Korea

Same goes for Iraq, if we still have US troops in Iraq come 2020, 2030, 2040 or on, will we be intellectually honest and include those peacekeeping costs into the total cost for the Iraq War?

Same goes for the costs to keep US bases open in Europe since WWII. Do we include European US military base costs into the total cost of World War 2?



Around the Network
Wonktonodi on 25 August 2010
rocketpig said:
Wonktonodi said:
rocketpig said:
SamuelRSmith said:

Just looking at the raw cost isn't everything. You have to also consider what the net effect will be to the economy in the long run. The Iraq War is paving the way for a secure oil pipeline, an allied state in the Middle-East, and (eventually) another nation of wealthy citizens embarking upon international trade. Over the decades, this will easily offset the financial cost of the war.

The stimulus package... well, it's kept a few inefficient companies afloat, it hasn't really corrected any of the fundamental flaws (and a stimulus package never will), and is causing prolonged economic turmoil. What's more, the long run inflation caused by the deficit is going to be crippling, and tending to the debts will cause decades of austerity.

I firmly believe that if we had let everything run its course naturally, we would be in the midsts of one of the strongest recoveries ever seen.

Indeed. I love how people assume the Iraq war has been an unmitigated disaster when we have no idea what the longterm consequences/rewards of involving ourselves in the conflict are going to be in 20 years.


It might also take 20 years to see how well the stimulus truly did.  However we'll still be paying for the war in 20 years.  In 50 years and Probably much longer.  Not the huge numbers of today but we'll still be paying for all the vets who got killed or were injured in the war.   Heck were still paying for a vet from WWI

Actually, no.

Putting money into a single economy has an effect that can be measured in a few years because there is a constant. Within that system, money pouring in and out is measured and the effects are easy to count.

Helping out another economy cannot be judged until the fruition (or lack thereof) has been accurately measured. When that economy involves another culture, atmosphere, etc. then it takes more time.

Or maybe you think the Korean War was a waste of time versus the minor wars America fought in Asia.

The denizens dictate these wars, not the west. We only enable them to change their lives. Whether that happens or not depends on what the people want for themselves.


I'm just saying to mesure something as complex as how some money affects a system can take time.  Doesn't it take at least 3 years before they even have final nembers for what GDP is?  Plus the US economy isn't a closed system.  The money spent on stimulus gets spent over and over and over.  Often going overseas.  It is much harder to count than you might think.  Even then though you can mesure what something did.  How can you mesure what would have happend if you didn't do something?   As a whole though probably not 20 years for seeing how things go. 

Well although I don't think the Korean war was a waste.  I think that Iraq was more like the ocupation of the Philipines and that really hadn't been worth it.



TheRealMafoo on 25 August 2010
axt113 said:

you make it sound like crashing is something you just get back up from,, no, crashing would be permanent, we wouldn't recover, what would happen is the country and eventually the world would end up trapped a deflationary spiral downwards, to the point where we would be looking at the Great Depression as a time of plenty

 

Contrary to what the pundits would have you believe, the economy is growing, slowly yes, but growth is growth, we are in a far better position that we would have been had the government not acted like it did


This crash would not have been as bad as the worst in history. 1920 was far worse. It lasted a year.

The only way we would crash and never recover, is if we are worth nothing, and then we are going to crash anyway.

The US has value. Value in our people, or manufacturing (we are still #1 in that, soon to be #2, but #2 is not the end of the world), or technology,  land, companies....

Letting free enterprise solve a problem they have proven so capable of solving, is the answer. Letting government solve the problem they have proven time and time again incapable of solving, is not.

Just look at history. We have been here before, and we have tried both options. One was wildly successful, and one was a total failure. It happened again, and we chose failure.



TheRealMafoo on 25 August 2010
Killiana1a said:

I will agree that over a 10 year period time, the effects of Obama's stimulus coupled with Obamacare and Obamafinanreg will push the total cost of the stimulus way up past the $1.5 trillion mark.

As for the costs of the Iraq War, you still have to account for how much the post-war, peacekeeping costs are for those US soldiers and if you are being honest, then you have to account for the costs to keep mercenary groups such as Xe (formerly known as Blackwater) involved.

As for total costs, why don't we include the costs of the Korean War in this debate. Far as I know we still have US troops in Korea (around 30,000), do we include their cost from 1953 until today into the total cost for the Korean War?

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Forces_Korea

Same goes for Iraq, if we still have US troops in Iraq come 2020, 2030, 2040 or on, will we be intellectually honest and include those peacekeeping costs into the total cost for the Iraq War?

Same goes for the costs to keep US bases open in Europe since WWII. Do we include European US military base costs into the total cost of World War 2?

Well, not sure you count those. The reason we are in Korea for example, has nothing to do with making sure they are stable, and everything to do with it's good for us to have a base in that part of the world (at least that's the thinking).

If we are in Iraq in 2030, we will be there for our personal reasons, and not because of the war.



SamuelRSmith on 25 August 2010
HappySqurriel said:
fastyxx said:

CBO said that stimulus added or saved between 1.4 and 3.3 million jobs and lowered unemployment by as much as 1.8% in the 2nd quarter.

How much is that worth at this point in time?  Where would consumer confidence be now if unemployment were in the mid 11% range?  Where would we be with another 1.5%- 2.5% of the workplace out of jobs?  Where would businesses be without an additional couple million out there spending as employed individuals?

We've used the CBO to throw stones at the stimulus.  (Though as I pointed out, this was somewhat baseless, though Mafoo chose to not respond to that critique.)  So are we now going to accept the CBO's analysis that the stimulus was indeed successful if not perfect?


What methodology does the CBO use to determine that a job was saved? It is up to the individual (or group) who makes a claim to prove that it is true rather than force someone to demonstrate that their statement is untrue; otherwise an idividual could argue that Emo music has prevented countless terrorist acts because there has not been a terrorist act since Emo music became popular.


Homer: Not a bear in sight. The Bear Patrol must be working like a
charm.
Lisa: That's spacious reasoning, Dad.
Homer: Thank you, dear.
Lisa: By your logic I could claim that this rock keeps tigers away.
Homer: Oh, how does it work?
Lisa: It doesn't work.
Homer: Uh-huh.
Lisa: It's just a stupid rock.
Homer: Uh-huh.
Lisa: But I don't see any tigers around, do you?
[Homer thinks of this, then pulls out some money]
Homer: Lisa, I want to buy your rock.



Around the Network
GamerExclusive on 25 August 2010

Oh noes teh big govament!



heruamon on 25 August 2010

I heard an urban legend that over the last 5-6 years, conservative think tanks and other like-minded organizations have been paying people to post seemingly innocence forum topics on random websites.  The goal of course is to implant subliminal messaging to people at a low intrusion level.  It's probably nothing more than just that, but when I read some of the topics on many of these "GAMING" sites (Same thing at WoW forums), it kinda makes me wonder. 



"...You can't kill ideas with a sword, and you can't sink belief structures with a broadside. You defeat them by making them change..."

- From By Schism Rent Asunder

HappySqurriel on 25 August 2010
heruamon said:

I heard an urban legend that over the last 5-6 years, conservative think tanks and other like-minded organizations have been paying people to post seemingly innocence forum topics on random websites.  The goal of course is to implant subliminal messaging to people at a low intrusion level.  It's probably nothing more than just that, but when I read some of the topics on many of these "GAMING" sites (Same thing at WoW forums), it kinda makes me wonder. 


I suspect that if you did a study on older videogame players (between the age of 25 and 50) you would find that they tended to be fiscally conservative libertarians. During the Bush years there were endless topics (on most gaming forums) about the expansion of government and the out of control deficits; and the thing that surprises me personally is how many people who I agreed with about the problems with Bush who don’t seem to think those are issues with Obama.



TheRealMafoo on 25 August 2010
heruamon said:

I heard an urban legend that over the last 5-6 years, conservative think tanks and other like-minded organizations have been paying people to post seemingly innocence forum topics on random websites.  The goal of course is to implant subliminal messaging to people at a low intrusion level.  It's probably nothing more than just that, but when I read some of the topics on many of these "GAMING" sites (Same thing at WoW forums), it kinda makes me wonder. 


Cool, where can I got to pick up my check? I have been doing this for free on my own accord, like a sucker.



NiKKoM on 25 August 2010

I really hope that theRealMafoo finds happiness in New Zealand and a lot of less stress because of topics like this.. Worrying about stuff you can't really do anything about it.. well once in 4 year.. isn't healthy..



 

Face the future.. Gamecenter ID: nikkom_nl (oh no he didn't!!)