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Forums - Gaming - Are third parties morons or are their actions deliberate?

FACT 1: More 3rd parties have gone bankrupt developing flops for the XBox 360 and/or PS3 than have gone bankrupt developing flops for the Wii.  Despite 3rd party lies, the Wii is a safer market.  It sells the most 3rd party software, has the most diverse software library, and has the cheapest development costs.

FACT 2: Repeatedly doing the same thing and expecting different results is evidence of insanity.

FACT 3: Ubisoft are about to release a rail shooter spinoff of a popular HD franchise, Ghost Recon, in light of evidence that every HD franchise that gets a "Wii lite" spinoff in the different genre than the fans are used to has flopped.

CONCLUSION A: The earlier hypothesis is correct.  They're intentionally releasing "hardcore-esque" flops in order to convince their investors that they shouldn't change their failing business models.  They'd rather go to enormous lengths to prove themselves correct than admit they were wrong.

CONCLUSION B: Ubisoft is insane and every dollar they've made has been the result of sheer luck.

CONCLUSION C: Both Conclusion A and B are correct.



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Squilliam said:
[People] are apt to take risks when it involves losses if it also includes the possibility to win big. Since the WIi doesn't offer that, they chose the HD consoles.

Are you insane?  The Wii doesn't offer that?  Carnival games was an insanely huge win for whoever made it considering initial investment.  With HD games, they don't go big unless it's a $10 million game.  How many people buy lottery tickets because they're "cheap" and "could win the lottery"? 

I'm busy so will have to reply to the rest later. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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I think the main problem is that 1st party Nintendo games sell much more than 1st party Sony or Microsoft games, so 3rd party developers see much fiercer competition in Nintendo consoles to sell their games. When Nintendo decides not to develop that many games (Wii music, Animal Crossing Christmas) the third party failed to capitalize, so Nintendo pushed the first party games again.

Third party developers think they can't compete with Nintendo, so it's easier for them to abandon the console, and try to make it flop, than to indirectly contribute to Nintendo success and fight against Nintendo 1st party the next generations. It will happen to Sony if they keep developing strong first party games, cannibalizing 3rd party sales.



I'm sure these third parties have all sorts of studies and surveys that show the different demographics of wii owners.  I'm guessing that nintendo didn't sell over 20 million wii fits to the core gaming audience.  That is ultimately the problem with the wii, they captured the non gamer audience, but that audience doesn't actually like most games.  they like their wii sports bowling and their wii fit.  Heck, they will even come in and browse through the shovelware for some crappy party game because they are having a party that night.  However, they could care less about call of duty or other core games.  Third parties probably recognize and create games accordingly.  I'm sure they have way more data on the spending habits of wii owners than we do.  



RolStoppable said:

Michael Pachter has been laughed at endlessly for his belief in a Wii HD among other ridiculous statements. For the longest time people just called him stupid, but some months ago that changed. What if Pachter doesn't say this things because he is stupid, but rather to influence people's perception of the market?

Now what if the same holds true for third party publishers when it comes to Wii support? Early on it was easy to just say that they are stupid and don't get the Wii, that's why their games are so lacking. But, as with Pachter, over time it's hard to believe that that is the case.

Here's my theory: Lack of sales for "mature" or "hardcore" content on the Wii as well as lack of processing power are named as excuses to why the Wii isn't getting particular games, but those aren't the real reasons. Third parties know that the Wii is a threat to their core market on the HD consoles. If they provide similar content on the Wii, eventually it's going to start to eat into the sales of their HD games and they don't want that to happen after they invested so much money upfront into the 360 and PS3. Thus they deliberately deny the Wii games that would sell and also don't shy away from setting games purposefully up for failure.

This theory is backed up by:

1) The PSP getting its own versions of games like Soul Calibur, Assassin's Creed and Split/Second while the Wii does not. The PSP sells undoubtly less software than the Wii and its processing power is also below the Wii, meaning HD games have to be redone to run on the PSP. This undermines the excuses third parties usually give.

2) The almost complete absence of the popular genres on the HD consoles on the Wii. FPS, TPS, sandbox and action titles, racing and fighting games. It's hard to find such titles on the Wii, there's not much choice. What is there consists of B-team games (Call of Duty), bastardizations (Need for Speed: Nitro) and games made by developers who can't afford to make HD games.

3) Changing the genre of a popular IP to make a Wii spinoff is also a popular practice. Soul Calibur Legends, Castlevania Judgment and Dead Space Extraction for example.

4) Ubisoft's recently announced Ghost Recon game for Wii, because that one really is set up for failure. Low production values coupled with being on rails and that way after the collective complaints from last year that sales for on rails games on the Wii were decreasing more and more.

5) Epic not porting the Unreal Engine 3 to the Wii, but to the iPhone. I am pretty sure that Epic would be able to charge higher prices/licensing fees for UE3 if AAA games remain on the HD consoles instead of moving to the Wii. Thus the Wii also posed a threat to their core business, unlike the iPhone which eventually got its version of UE3. Not that third parties were really interested to make AAA games for the Wii anyway.

For years we used to say that third parties were caught off guard by the Wii's success and that's why certain games didn't make their appearance on the Wii, but that excuse doesn't hold up nowadays. This is 2010 and all the genres that are present on the HD consoles should have arrived on the Wii by now.

And we didn't land on the moon, either.

 

Yeesh, the Wii is supposed to be different from the other consoles.  Of course it's not going to get the same games, or the franchises in the same manner.  This is pretty much what Nintendo wanted from the beginning.  For the Wii to be different and to receive a different kind of support.

 

And there was a second gunman on the grassy knoll.

 

All those genres Nintendo fans claim they want so badly on the Wii, are the very same games they always refuse to buy on the Wii because they'd rather have whatever came out in the last month with Mario in it.  You'd think they'd overlook minor issues with titles like Red Steel 2, Bully, Dead Space Extraction, MadWorld, No More Heroes, The Conduit, Cursed Mountain, Deadly Creatures, Tenchu, Geometry Wars, CoD, Medal of Honor, Resident Evil, Manhunt, etc. and be happy with what they have.  If Nintendo fans wanted some of these genres--FPS, sandbox, RPG, etc--maybe they shouldn't have turned their noses up so severely at what was released on the system.  Maybe they should forgive the fact that not every game is going to be perfect.  Certainly, not every FPS title on other systems is perfect.  Haze has pretty low reviews.  The difference is that Sony's fans seem to actually support the games, rather than turning a cold elitist shoulder.

 

And the World Trade Center had a giant army of covert men-in-black secretly planting bombs in the buildings, yet somehow, totally unseen.

 

This is very simple.  The NES and SNES had a market for third party companies, because there was more than just core Nintendo fans on the things, and they bought all kinds of games.  Ever since the N64, it seems the Nintendo consoles are over-run by Nintendo elitist types who purchase things in this manner:  Nintendo first, third party never.

It's very simple:  The Wii isn't supposed to have all the same games as the other consoles--it never was.  AND Nintendo fans tend not to support the types of games prevelant and popular everywhere else.   

If Nintendo fans want some of these games so badly, maybe they should actually start buying them when they appear.  Case in point:  GTA: Chinatown Wars sold worse than pretty much every other contemporary GTA game to date.  And as far as I'm concerned, that game is the number one reason to own a DS.  I guess most other DS owners were too busy training virtual dogs.



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Final-Fan said:
Squilliam said:
[People] are apt to take risks when it involves losses if it also includes the possibility to win big. Since the WIi doesn't offer that, they chose the HD consoles.

Are you insane?  The Wii doesn't offer that?  Carnival games was an insanely huge win for whoever made it considering initial investment.  With HD games, they don't go big unless it's a $10 million game.  How many people buy lottery tickets because they're "cheap" and "could win the lottery"? 

I'm busy so will have to reply to the rest later. 

I don't know why are you nervous. Third parties do exactly what you say. They release cheap carnical games alike titles banking on easy profit and minimal risk.



PROUD MEMBER OF THE PSP RPG FAN CLUB

Squilliam said:
Final-Fan said:
Even if I grant all the stuff you said, Squilliam, I don't see it making a 37% difference into a 300% difference like you suggest. 

Take an average sale price which is $37 for third party games (and dropping?) then consider you have a lot of games which sell fewer units and therefore find themselves in the higher royalty rate bracket. Then consider that a trickle of units every week (legs) is far more costly in terms of shipping and production than simply making 500,000 units and shipping them at once. Finally consider that as third parties they have double the total number of sales on the Xbox 360 and PS3 with PC sometimes as well, combined, at a faster rate, with a higher average sale price and with the opportunity for additional revenue from DLC. Since the variable costs are lower relative to the sale price it could be as high as 2- 300% of overal Wii revenue for FY2011.

Another answer, people are monkeys and monkeys are irrational.
http://www.ted.com/talks/laurie_santos.html
They are apt to take risks when it involves losses if it also includes the possibility to win big. Since the WIi doesn't offer that, they chose the HD consoles.

Look, I could argue a lot of that stuff, but what I'm focusing on right now is that you're saying that it magnifies the difference in profit per unit by OVER EIGHT TIMES.  You are really confident this is the case? 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Zlejedi said:
Final-Fan said:
Squilliam said:
[People] are apt to take risks when it involves losses if it also includes the possibility to win big. Since the WIi doesn't offer that, they chose the HD consoles.

Are you insane?  The Wii doesn't offer that?  Carnival games was an insanely huge win for whoever made it considering initial investment.  With HD games, they don't go big unless it's a $10 million game.  How many people buy lottery tickets because they're "cheap" and "could win the lottery"? 

I'm busy so will have to reply to the rest later. 

I don't know why are you nervous. Third parties do exactly what you say. They release cheap carnical games alike titles banking on easy profit and minimal risk.

The thing is, even if that is true, it still refutes Squilliam's point. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Well i think Wii should get a lot more multi-plats.



 

   PROUD MEMBER OF THE PLAYSTATION 3 : RPG FAN CLUB

 

Mr Khan said:

Bingo. Third parties have to try their hardest to prevent investor revolt, when they have a bad quarter, savvy investors are going to first and foremost ask why they're ignoring 48% of the console market. So they tossed a few low-budget bones out there, and it was a win-win scenario. If their crap somehow managed to catch on, hooray, we've got a low-budget hit (2K games, foremost in the piss-poor supporters of Wii, lucked out there with Carnival Games), and if they fail, then hooray, they can justify ignoring Wii to their investors, and they don't lose much money on it (Bandai-Namco hit that note with Soul Calibur Legends, and EA did tremendously with Dead Space Extraction)

 

To up the ante, they hire market "analysts" like Pachter and Divnich and Frasier, who then tell the investors to their face that high-quality Wii development is a bad idea.

Well written post

I agree