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Forums - General - If you think illegals are good people, you're a rasist.

venepe on 02 August 2010
Kasz216 said:
venepe said:
TheRealMafoo said:
venepe said:

Well, that is a broad generalization.  First of all, crossing the border without a visa is in fact an illegal act.. So is speeding...The point is not all illegal acts equate to a moral wrong.  Most "illegals" com over out of dire economic need, thus I would say there is hardly any moral wrong.

Second, do you have any idea how hard it is for a poor Mexican person to be able to enter into the US Legally?  I'll answer that...it is practically impossible.  Those who are able to get here legally are usually high-middle class persons who were able to obtain a tourist visa but overstayed.

Third, the statistics you mentioned are bias.  Since Arizona can only "round up illegal aliens" when they are arrested over a state violation then of course a higher percentage of those will have a prior criminal record of some sort.  Now, "criminal record" just means that you commited some type of offense..the most typical one is driving without a license, driving under the influence, and disturbance of the peace.


Answer me this please....

If I had my own country somewhere, and there were only two ways to get here. One was the way I required. Wait in a line to get on a bus, fill out some paperwork, and ride 12 hours in an un-airconditioned bus with 40 other people. The other way was to steal a car.

Everyone who didn't take the bus, is a car thief. Before I even got a chance to hire them, they had to have the disposition that committing a crime for there own needs was ok. You think if I hired the equal amount of people from each pool, I would get the equal quality of employee? 

That's funny!!  Great analogy....I'm glad you are not a judge or an attorney.

Have you ever seen the film (or read the book) Les Miserables?  Basically, the guy is starving and steals a loaf of bread.  He is locked up in jail for that...most poeple think that is unfair.  US Law, State Law think is unfair.  That is why there is a defense called "necessity".

Stealin a car: taking other person's property with intent to permanently deprive him/her of the property is a crime both legally and moraly.  Crossing the US Border without a visa is a crime agaist US Immigration Law, but not necessarily a moral crime.  The intent is not to violate the law to "hurt" the US, the intent of most people in that situation is to work in order to provide for their families and so that their children can have a better future.

Now having said that, it is still illegal thus penalties are in fact in order.  But I wouldn;t called them people predisposed to committing crimes.

To entertain you analogy though...US Immigration laws are more like "Wait in line to get to the bus, but the people with money get in first, then the people with high skill second, third goes the people who promise to return to their countries in 6 months, and everyone else wait for 10 years and we'll see if we have any need for you".

So... you find it wrong that countries want to make sure the people who immigrate will be useful contributors to society.  I would think that would be common sense.   Espiceally with so many people jumping the border without any means to be useful.  Ever think the reason the law is the way it is would be because of all the illegal immigration?

Also, your ignoring the fact there are immigration slots open via lottery.


I don't find it wrong. I was just entertaining TheRealMafoo's analogy.  It's just the whole notion of "wait in line like everyone else" argument that is thrown around immigration problems.  There is just no line to wait on for most poor Mexican people.  Also the visa lottery is not open to Mexican citizens by the way. 

So, it you are a poor Mexican farm worker, your family is very poor and hungry, your own country doesn't help you because of corruption, your whole life has been bombarded with "the american dream" on TV and the movies, and the whole notion of freedom in the US...That country is just a few miles north of you but there is no way to get in legally for someone like you.  Then of course you are going to take a chance for the sake of your family and cross.  My point is that there is no moral wrong there, no criminal mindset.  You are as criminal as a person committing a traffic violation.

But I'm not advocating for people to cross the border.  I'm just explaining the phenomenon.  The best fix would be to tighten up border security and cut off the lure of employment options.  Then create a better system of legal immigration.  Personally I would prefer an easier way to get in legally, given the history of the US as a country of immigrants.  But if the US want to adopt an anti-immigrant policy it can do so but it must stop exporting the whole notion of the American dream and all of that, since then it would just be a tease...



"¿Por qué justo a mí tenía que tocarme ser yo?"

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Kasz216 on 02 August 2010
venepe said:
Kasz216 said:
venepe said:
TheRealMafoo said:
venepe said:

Well, that is a broad generalization.  First of all, crossing the border without a visa is in fact an illegal act.. So is speeding...The point is not all illegal acts equate to a moral wrong.  Most "illegals" com over out of dire economic need, thus I would say there is hardly any moral wrong.

Second, do you have any idea how hard it is for a poor Mexican person to be able to enter into the US Legally?  I'll answer that...it is practically impossible.  Those who are able to get here legally are usually high-middle class persons who were able to obtain a tourist visa but overstayed.

Third, the statistics you mentioned are bias.  Since Arizona can only "round up illegal aliens" when they are arrested over a state violation then of course a higher percentage of those will have a prior criminal record of some sort.  Now, "criminal record" just means that you commited some type of offense..the most typical one is driving without a license, driving under the influence, and disturbance of the peace.


Answer me this please....

If I had my own country somewhere, and there were only two ways to get here. One was the way I required. Wait in a line to get on a bus, fill out some paperwork, and ride 12 hours in an un-airconditioned bus with 40 other people. The other way was to steal a car.

Everyone who didn't take the bus, is a car thief. Before I even got a chance to hire them, they had to have the disposition that committing a crime for there own needs was ok. You think if I hired the equal amount of people from each pool, I would get the equal quality of employee? 

That's funny!!  Great analogy....I'm glad you are not a judge or an attorney.

Have you ever seen the film (or read the book) Les Miserables?  Basically, the guy is starving and steals a loaf of bread.  He is locked up in jail for that...most poeple think that is unfair.  US Law, State Law think is unfair.  That is why there is a defense called "necessity".

Stealin a car: taking other person's property with intent to permanently deprive him/her of the property is a crime both legally and moraly.  Crossing the US Border without a visa is a crime agaist US Immigration Law, but not necessarily a moral crime.  The intent is not to violate the law to "hurt" the US, the intent of most people in that situation is to work in order to provide for their families and so that their children can have a better future.

Now having said that, it is still illegal thus penalties are in fact in order.  But I wouldn;t called them people predisposed to committing crimes.

To entertain you analogy though...US Immigration laws are more like "Wait in line to get to the bus, but the people with money get in first, then the people with high skill second, third goes the people who promise to return to their countries in 6 months, and everyone else wait for 10 years and we'll see if we have any need for you".

So... you find it wrong that countries want to make sure the people who immigrate will be useful contributors to society.  I would think that would be common sense.   Espiceally with so many people jumping the border without any means to be useful.  Ever think the reason the law is the way it is would be because of all the illegal immigration?

Also, your ignoring the fact there are immigration slots open via lottery.


I don't find it wrong. I was just entertaining TheRealMafoo's analogy.  It's just the whole notion of "wait in line like everyone else" argument that is thrown around immigration problems.  There is just no line to wait on for most poor Mexican people.  Also the visa lottery is not open to Mexican citizens by the way. 

So, it you are a poor Mexican farm worker, your family is very poor and hungry, your own country doesn't help you because of corruption, your whole life has been bombarded with "the american dream" on TV and the movies, and the whole notion of freedom in the US...That country is just a few miles north of you but there is no way to get in legally for someone like you.  Then of course you are going to take a chance for the sake of your family and cross.  My point is that there is no moral wrong there, no criminal mindset.  You are as criminal as a person committing a traffic violation.

But I'm not advocating for people to cross the border.  I'm just explaining the phenomenon.  The best fix would be to tighten up border security and cut off the lure of employment options.  Then create a better system of legal immigration.  Personally I would prefer an easier way to get in legally, given the history of the US as a country of immigrants.  But if the US want to adopt an anti-immigrant policy it can do so but it must stop exporting the whole notion of the American dream and all of that, since then it would just be a tease...


Mexicans are currently off the visa lottery because of all of the Illegal immigration.  Hence the issue.  They can't "line up" specifically because they are abusing the rules.

As for "exporting the American Dream."  How exactly does the US do this?   Because other countries like American TV and Movies?  If people want that lifestyle... shouldn't they try and change their countries into said lifestyle?

Also, why do plenty of people NOT do this in the same situation?  Breaking said law is FAR more then a "traffic violation."



WilliamWatts on 02 August 2010
Kasz216 said:
WilliamWatts said:
Kasz216 said:
WilliamWatts said:

Some would argue that the American aquisition of Texas was illegal and therefore the Mexicans are entering what should rightfully be their country.

You could really only make that case if you applied international laws backwords through time.  Which would cause soo many problems.

You could argue that its their country by right of conquest, since they are better at sneaking in than America is at keeping/kicking them out. Theres your precedent, and that predates international law.

None of that remotely made any sense...

I mean...

A) International Law exists now.

B) There is no precident before international laws existed on the subject... because there was literally no international law.

Yeah there is. You move somewhere, you naturalise and then make it difficult for anyone to kick you out. Its something which isn't a new phenom. It has been recorded since Roman times and perhaps before then.



Kasz216 on 02 August 2010
WilliamWatts said:
Kasz216 said:
WilliamWatts said:
Kasz216 said:
WilliamWatts said:

Some would argue that the American aquisition of Texas was illegal and therefore the Mexicans are entering what should rightfully be their country.

You could really only make that case if you applied international laws backwords through time.  Which would cause soo many problems.

You could argue that its their country by right of conquest, since they are better at sneaking in than America is at keeping/kicking them out. Theres your precedent, and that predates international law.

None of that remotely made any sense...

I mean...

A) International Law exists now.

B) There is no precident before international laws existed on the subject... because there was literally no international law.

Yeah there is. You move somewhere, you naturalise and then make it difficult for anyone to kick you out. Its something which isn't a new phenom. It has been recorded since Roman times and perhaps before then.

Er... which has to do what with international law? 



WilliamWatts on 02 August 2010
Kasz216 said:
WilliamWatts said:

Yeah there is. You move somewhere, you naturalise and then make it difficult for anyone to kick you out. Its something which isn't a new phenom. It has been recorded since Roman times and perhaps before then.

Er... which has to do what with international law? 

It predates it.



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Kasz216 on 02 August 2010
WilliamWatts said:
Kasz216 said:
WilliamWatts said:

Yeah there is. You move somewhere, you naturalise and then make it difficult for anyone to kick you out. Its something which isn't a new phenom. It has been recorded since Roman times and perhaps before then.

Er... which has to do what with international law? 

It predates it.

So does murder.  It predates all laws.  What's your point?



Joel12345 on 02 August 2010

Wow every body came her illegial one point in time,get over it.

well I'm Mexican does that matter?no,am I bad?no.

not all of our people are bad we just came here to bring you tacos and what do you guys do?kick us out :(

lol



Leunam on 03 August 2010

Why does everyone equal illegals to mexicans? Unless, of course, you're refering specifically to them just for illustration purposes.

I agree with your point. People need to do things the legal way. It took me 14 years to finish the immigration process and seeing all these people crossing the border just like that... it doesn't feel good.



ffirebrand_cloud on 03 August 2010

Well, so you are basically saying that mexicans that have economical opportunities to go there legally, are good mexicans, but the ones that enter illegally because they live in a shitty countryside town where they don't have basic services and their children die of hunger are bad? 

 

Wow I hope this is joke.



TheRealMafoo on 03 August 2010
Joel12345 said:

Wow every body came her illegial one point in time,get over it.

well I'm Mexican does that matter?no,am I bad?no.

not all of our people are bad we just came here to bring you tacos and what do you guys do?kick us out :(

lol


Sorry, but everyone didn't come here illegally. Also, if you read the point behind my post, it's that I think the Mexican people as a whole are a great people. I have been to Mexico many times, and when you get away from the border towns, there are very few countries I enjoy more. The place is awesome, and the people are very friendly.

The point of my post, is illegal aliens don't equal mexicans. To think of the Mexican people as a whole, and then equate those who cross the boarder illegally as nothing more then a equal cross section of that society, is to inject a racial component into your reasoning.

Yes, there are a percentage of people who cross the border who have no interest in committing any other crime (aside from the fact that employment for them is criminal as well), but those people are not the percentage we think they are.

I mean even if it's 90%, that means 10's of thousands of people are entering this country to commit a crime.

Let me ask you this, if 9 out of 10 people who stole your car, just wanted to put gas in it, wash it for you and return it, and the other 10% blew it up, should it be against the law?

I think everyone would say yes.