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Forums - General - Why don't you believe in a god?

theARTIST0017 said:
Armads said:

What makes you think you have free will?

God or not there is no such thing as free will, the timeline of the universe is determined at it's very beginning (though that's not the beginning of time, just the universe, the big bang is the beginning of our universe because any event before the big bang would not have any effect on what happened after that event so therefore it is irrelevant to our universe just as our universe will have no effect upon the next one after the big crunch and next big bang.)

Oh and your bit about people not changing is totally wrong, people changes religions and belief systems all the time.  I was raised Roman catholic, studied buddhism breifly, then settled on an atheistic worldview which accepts logical assertions such as panpsychism versus eliminative materialism; either one is logically sound so I accept them both as possibilities. 

Studies show less than 1/2 of all Americans stay with the faith they were brought up in, most change once or twice in their lives.

No such thing as free will? You seem delusional.

BIG BANG THE BEGINNING? AND YOU CAN BRING ME PAPERS (FACTS) TO PROVE THIS "BIG BANG THEORY". Dude its called the Big Bang Theory for a reason. 

Yeah people change but most likely if you are raised a  certain religion, that is what you will stick to because its 1. what you know and 2. what you've believed your whole life.

He said that the big bang was the start of our Universe, which I think you'll find all the evidence points towards. I'll risk repeating myself, so I'll just keep this short and if you need anymore information either look back at earlier posts about the big bang or research it yourself by reading scientifically valid peer reviewed work.

We know two facts, the Universe is expanding and it has existed for a finite amount of time.

How do we know the Universe is expanding? Because a man named Edwin Hubble made a series of painstaking calculations of the movement of galaxies over the course of a decade, determining the data by calculating the shift in apparent electromagnetic frequency as would be predicted by the Doppler effect. If it shifts towards the red end of the spectrum, the galaxy is moving away, and if it is blue it is moving towards us.

Lo and behold, every observed galaxy is in redshift. In other words they are all moving away from us and each other. Hubble's observations can only lead to one conlusion, the universe is expanding. Look at my earlier analogy of the dotted balloon.

This is called hubble's law, and it is a solid fact (you said you wanted facts).

We also know that the Universe has existed for a finite amount of time.

The first fact supporting this is the observed evolution of galaxies. As light reaches us from distant galaxies (so we see them as they were billions of years ago) we can see that there is a progression in the form of their structure.  This leads us to conclude that galaxies could only have existed for a finite amount of time, and we can track their evolution from primitive galaxies to modern galaxies.

The second fact is the abundance of hydrogen. If the Universe has existed for an infinite amount of time the vast majority of hydrogen would have have been used up in the fusion of atoms in stars. Yet the fact remains, hydrogen is extremely abundant.

 

Given these two facts (expanding universe, finite time frame) we have to conclude that our Universe was at one point a singularity. And if you rewind the expansion model over the finite period of time you will see that our Universe had to of begun as a singularity.

I'm not going to pretend I know what happened before the big bang, or what caused it; but I can tell you that the facts show that our Universe started as a singularity and expanded from there, otherwise known as the big bang.

 

And you also need to look up the definition of scientific theory before you try to challenge one. It is not the same as the common use of the word theory. A scientific theory is the explanation of a series of facts based on evidence.

In other words, a theory is evidence and facts, and not "guesswork" as most creationists seem to think.



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Armads said:
theARTIST0017 said:
Armads said:
theARTIST0017 said:
vlad321 said:

So I have yet to see a good answer as to why we should listen to God and belive in him and not fairies and unicorns and cyclops and other such creatures which have exactly as much evidence as any god in any religion.

That's ok. Nobody's forcing you to believe in anything. You choose to believe in what you want that's sorta how free will works. If you don't believe in God now, most likely you're not going to believe in him later. Most people don't change.

What makes you think you have free will?

God or not there is no such thing as free will, the timeline of the universe is determined at it's very beginning (though that's not the beginning of time, just the universe, the big bang is the beginning of our universe because any event before the big bang would not have any effect on what happened after that event so therefore it is irrelevant to our universe just as our universe will have no effect upon the next one after the big crunch and next big bang.)

Oh and your bit about people not changing is totally wrong, people changes religions and belief systems all the time.  I was raised Roman catholic, studied buddhism breifly, then settled on an atheistic worldview which accepts logical assertions such as panpsychism versus eliminative materialism; either one is logically sound so I accept them both as possibilities. 

Studies show less than 1/2 of all Americans stay with the faith they were brought up in, most change once or twice in their lives.

No such thing as free will? You seem delusional.

BIG BANG THE BEGINNING? AND YOU CAN BRING ME PAPERS (FACTS) TO PROVE THIS "BIG BANG THEORY". Dude its called the Big Bang Theory for a reason. 

Yeah people change but most likely if you are raised a  certain religion, that is what you will stick to because its 1. what you know and 2. what you've believed your whole life.

"it's called a theory for a reason" man, has no one yet told you that a theory in science must be supported by facts an evidence before it is accepted as a theory?  

Hey guess what?  Gravity is still just a theory

Scientists find definitive proof of the big bang in cosmic microwave background radiation

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=misconceptions-about-the-2005-03

An explanation about how scientists refined the theory to explain the problem of infinite density

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=echoes-from-before-the-bi

An article on how the BBT has stood the test of time and keeps showing itself to be correct

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=a-big-boost-for-the-big-b

Take note what the scientist says at the bottom of the article because I think it's of importance to the highly religious who denounce science "I am happy that the Big Bang theory passed this test, but it would have been more exciting if the theory had failed and we had to start looking for a new model of the evolution of the Universe"  Science is not dogma, scientists try to prove the BBT wrong all the time because science is about finding the truth, not sticking to old ideals dogmatically.  This is why we abandoned heliocentricity, geocentricity, the belief that the world is flat and other such things that were the science of yesteryear.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/astronomy/bigbang.html

January 2001 edition of Scientific American "That the universe is expanding and cooling is the essence of the big bang theory. You will notice I have said nothing about an 'explosion' - the big bang theory describes how our universe is evolving, not how it began"- cosmologist P. J. E. Peebles 

Now personally I take the determinist side when discussing free will and determinism (there's also the third option compatiblism which argues that the two do not contradict and can both exist.)  But really I don't know if this is the thread for that discussion anyways, it actually does not matter if you believe in god or not; determinism vs free will is a complex argument.  You could argue for a god with free will or a godless deterministic universe, or you could argue for a godless universe with free will and a god who determined everything.  I think I'll start a separate thread for that because in here it might get too tangled with people arguing religion which tends to become more heated than that sort of philisophical debate. 



I read your articles. Surprised? I like to learn about these sort of things I'm actually very interested in astrology. Look, yes I see where you're coming from. There could be strong evidence for the theory. I learned from my biology teacher that a scientific theory is one that "stands the test of time" and is accepted as "truth" see how I put truth in quotes. What I'm trying to say is, we don't have time machines, so its not as if we can just go back in time and confirm anything can we?



NINTENDO

nintendo forever . . .

Armads said:

You do not understand what DMT does despite my having explained it.  It's not just a hallucination causing chemical every and anytime you have a spiritual feeling, it's a DMT release, small if the feeling is faint, large if you hallucinate.  Trust me I've done a lot of studying on religious rituals and their connection with DMT release and the spiritual high it creates.  I've meditated, spoken in tongues, and even done some of the extreme practices that shamans use to prepare themselves for a spiritual journey.  I've eaten nothing but unsalted fish and plain white rice with water for a month (which puts you into a hallucinatory dreamlike state alone.)  I've spent an entire day in meditation, I've fasted.  All of these religious rituals come from different religions: christianity, buddhism, shamanism, etc.  Yet they all produce the exact same feeling, which is the exact same feeling one feels when they smoke DMT (and yes I've done that too.)

Wow... and to think you're only 20. I wish I had your discipline and determination. I might get more things done.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

highwaystar101 said:
theARTIST0017 said:
Armads said:

What makes you think you have free will?

God or not there is no such thing as free will, the timeline of the universe is determined at it's very beginning (though that's not the beginning of time, just the universe, the big bang is the beginning of our universe because any event before the big bang would not have any effect on what happened after that event so therefore it is irrelevant to our universe just as our universe will have no effect upon the next one after the big crunch and next big bang.)

Oh and your bit about people not changing is totally wrong, people changes religions and belief systems all the time.  I was raised Roman catholic, studied buddhism breifly, then settled on an atheistic worldview which accepts logical assertions such as panpsychism versus eliminative materialism; either one is logically sound so I accept them both as possibilities. 

Studies show less than 1/2 of all Americans stay with the faith they were brought up in, most change once or twice in their lives.

No such thing as free will? You seem delusional.

BIG BANG THE BEGINNING? AND YOU CAN BRING ME PAPERS (FACTS) TO PROVE THIS "BIG BANG THEORY". Dude its called the Big Bang Theory for a reason. 

Yeah people change but most likely if you are raised a  certain religion, that is what you will stick to because its 1. what you know and 2. what you've believed your whole life.

. . .

And you also need to look up the definition of scientific theory before you try to challenge one. It is not the same as the common use of the word theory. A scientific theory is the explanation of a series of facts based on evidence.

In other words, a theory is evidence and facts, and not "guesswork" as most creationists seem to think.

I know what a scientific theory is. Actually it is not an explanation of a series of facts. It theorizes based on observations and concepts. Then After it stands the "test of time" it becomes generally accepted.

In the sciences, a scientific theory (also called an empirical theory) comprises a collection of concepts, including abstractions of observable phenomena expressed as quantifiable properties, together with rules (called scientific laws) that express relationships between observations of such concepts. A scientific theory is constructed to conform to available empirical data about such observations, and is put forth as aprinciple or body of principles for explaining a class of phenomena.




NINTENDO

nintendo forever . . .

theARTIST0017 said:

I like to learn about these sort of things I'm actually very interested in astrology.

Well that wont help you very much when debating astronomy, will it.

(*hehe* I kid, Kid, I know what you meant really.)



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sapphi_snake said:
Armads said:

You do not understand what DMT does despite my having explained it.  It's not just a hallucination causing chemical every and anytime you have a spiritual feeling, it's a DMT release, small if the feeling is faint, large if you hallucinate.  Trust me I've done a lot of studying on religious rituals and their connection with DMT release and the spiritual high it creates.  I've meditated, spoken in tongues, and even done some of the extreme practices that shamans use to prepare themselves for a spiritual journey.  I've eaten nothing but unsalted fish and plain white rice with water for a month (which puts you into a hallucinatory dreamlike state alone.)  I've spent an entire day in meditation, I've fasted.  All of these religious rituals come from different religions: christianity, buddhism, shamanism, etc.  Yet they all produce the exact same feeling, which is the exact same feeling one feels when they smoke DMT (and yes I've done that too.)

Wow... and to think you're only 20. I wish I had your discipline and determination. I might get more things done.

Actually I'm 21 about to turn 22, but this site is broken and thinks that 2010-1988=20

 

To the other post, no I'm not surprised that you read the articles.  Frankly I'm more surprised when I'm attmepting to debate when someone and they willfully ignore anything presented to them that contradicts their stance.  And what you said about being accepted as truth with quotations, well that's the way you should look at the issue.  If you think something is not correct you should set out to prove it's not, skepticism is at the very core of science and we would be nowhere if people didn't doubt what was already established as fact. 



highwaystar101 said:
theARTIST0017 said:

I like to learn about these sort of things I'm actually very interested in astrology.

Well that wont help you very much when debating astronomy, will it.

(*hehe* I kid, Kid, I know what you meant really.)

oh, my bad, yes I actually meant astronomy



NINTENDO

nintendo forever . . .

theARTIST0017 said:
highwaystar101 said:
theARTIST0017 said:

I like to learn about these sort of things I'm actually very interested in astrology.

Well that wont help you very much when debating astronomy, will it.

(*hehe* I kid, Kid, I know what you meant really.)

oh, my bad, yes I actually meant astronomy


You should look up the book The Universe:From flat earth to quasar by Isaac Asimov.  It's a great read and will give you a lot of insight into the world of astronomy.  Another good book (although less dense and more easily accesible to the average reader) is Cosmos by Carl Sagan, he also did a TV series that accompanies the book (it has different information) which I have yet to watch but I'm sure it's good, 13 episodes each an hour long, 13 hours of astronomy told by Carl Sagan?  I can't imagine it not being good.



Armads said:
theARTIST0017 said:
highwaystar101 said:
theARTIST0017 said:

I like to learn about these sort of things I'm actually very interested in astrology.

Well that wont help you very much when debating astronomy, will it.

(*hehe* I kid, Kid, I know what you meant really.)

oh, my bad, yes I actually meant astronomy


You should look up the book The Universe:From flat earth to quasar by Isaac Asimov.  It's a great read and will give you a lot of insight into the world of astronomy.  Another good book (although less dense and more easily accesible to the average reader) is Cosmos by Carl Sagan, he also did a TV series that accompanies the book (it has different information) which I have yet to watch but I'm sure it's good, 13 episodes each an hour long, 13 hours of astronomy told by Carl Sagan?  I can't imagine it not being good.


Thanks for the info, especially the tv show one. I watch history science channel with my friend and we usually get  into debates. (I would rather watch Bill Nye the science guy though he makes it interesting and fun.) 



NINTENDO

nintendo forever . . .

theARTIST0017 said:
highwaystar101 said:
. . .

And you also need to look up the definition of scientific theory before you try to challenge one. It is not the same as the common use of the word theory. A scientific theory is the explanation of a series of facts based on evidence.

In other words, a theory is evidence and facts, and not "guesswork" as most creationists seem to think.

I know what a scientific theory is. Actually it is not an explanation of a series of facts. It theorizes based on observations and concepts. Then After it stands the "test of time" it becomes generally accepted.

In the sciences, a scientific theory (also called an empirical theory) comprises a collection of concepts, including abstractions of observable phenomena expressed as quantifiable properties, together with rules (called scientific laws) that express relationships between observations of such concepts. A scientific theory is constructed to conform to available empirical data about such observations, and is put forth as aprinciple or body of principles for explaining a class of phenomena.


I'm sorry, but you more or less said that I'm wrong, then cited a definition of scientific theory which states "A scientific theory is constructed to conform to available empirical data about such observations, and is put forth as a principle or body of principles for explaining a class of phenomena", which is pretty much what I said.

Besides, I'm fully aware that a theory has to conform to the evidence when theories are challenged (because how would they become more correct otherwise?). And I think that goes without saying when I say the explanation is based on the evidence. When new evidence is introduced, the explanation has to change. I think I've repeated myself enough in the past on the definition of a theory though.

Either way it is an ad hominem attack. You decide to try and attack my credibility at the end when I corrected you; instead of offering a rebuttal to the facts that I gave you, which is what you were interested in in the first place.