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dtewi said:
lestatdark said:


Oh Slimebeast, there you go with your attacks when your knowledge gets put out in the open

What you're saying is biologically impossible. For this conversation to go further, I would pretty much like for you to demonstrate what you know about DNA, RNA, mRNA, tRNA and how genetic information is processed, deconstructed and then put into biological shape (that is, proteins).

These are the basics of genetics, if you understand them, you'll see that there's no possible way that behaviour is determined by proteins (you're mixing hormone and signal input with behaviour).


That's 9th grade Biology. Although, I can't see how something like Cysteine and Guanine would make someone hate homosexuals.

Although, I'm still perplexed as to why DNA codes for personality.


Like I said in your wall, smaller personality traits are easily coded by DNA. That's because of DNA fingerprinting, that happens during the fusion of both haploid zygotes in the first days of fertilization. 

This DNA fingerprinting randomly methylates certain genomic areas, while keeping other areas unmethylated. When a DNA area is methylated, it cannot be coded by DNA polymerase, thus that trait never appears in protein expression, while if the area is unmethylated, it can be expressed. 

Given that also during this process of DNA fingerprinting, homologous recombination of the zygote aleli happens, there's always an extremely high probability of new traits being formed during this recombination (the recombination rate is 2^38, for non-methylated DNA).

That's why some traits of "personality" are coded by DNA, but it doesn't code for complex traits like if a person is wise or pre-disposed to idiocy. That's due to personal experience and environmental effects.



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Slimebeast said:
Khuutra said:
Slimebeast said:
Khuutra said:

I'm not getting touchy; I just need you to understand that you've done nothing to convince me that you aren't a layman when it comes to genetics.

All right, slimebeast, break it down for me. Explain to me a given instinctual mechanic that can be explained by sequences in DNA - let's take something easy, like a deer's fear of humans.

Tell me how it works. Don't avoid the big words.

I haven't? That's because you can't free yourself from prejudice. Since you think I have radical and anti-scientific opinions and beliefs you have labeled me and you underrate me. You don't have to deny it, I know it is so.

Of course "layman" needs a definition. Who is an expert and who is a layman? But my understanding of how genetics cooperate with the environment to determine behaviour is mostl likely better than anyone else in this forum. And I'm sure the proof is out there, in old posts.

As for your example with a deer's fear of humans, I don't want to reveal the answer yet, because I need to get you convinced that I understand this topic better than lestatdark. So hopefully he will reply in the thread soon.

Each argument exists in a vacuum. I don't care about how you argud in the evolution thread, or whatveer. If you recall, I only posted in there to comment about the speed of light and the age of the universe, not anything to do with genetics.

If you can't provide any proof then I'm sorry, but I'm going to remain unconvinced of pretty much anything.

Curiosity here, rather than trying to build an argument: what sort of doctor are you?

I've discussed genetics here before, regarding other topics.

I'm a general practitioner.

I'm amazed at your unwillingness of showing how much you actually know about genetics without quoting random links that any 15-year old could get out of the internet. 

Then again, i'm not expecting much.



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lestatdark said:

Like I said in your wall, smaller personality traits are easily coded by DNA. That's because of DNA fingerprinting, that happens during the fusion of both haploid zygotes in the first days of fertilization. 

This DNA fingerprinting randomly methylates certain genomic areas, while keeping other areas unmethylated. When a DNA area is methylated, it cannot be coded by DNA polymerase, thus that trait never appears in protein expression, while if the area is unmethylated, it can be expressed. 

Given that also during this process of DNA fingerprinting, homologous recombination of the zygote aleli happens, there's always an extremely high probability of new traits being formed during this recombination (the recombination rate is 2^38, for non-methylated DNA).

That's why some traits of "personality" are coded by DNA, but it doesn't code for complex traits like if a person is wise or pre-disposed to idiocy. That's due to personal experience and environmental effects.


My 9th grade biology only goes so far!

Hmmm. So would a pre-disposition to say happiness or anger be able to be expressed? How simplistic are these traits?



Kimi wa ne tashika ni ano toki watashi no soba ni ita

Itsudatte itsudatte itsudatte

Sugu yoko de waratteita

Nakushitemo torimodosu kimi wo

I will never leave you

Slimebeast said:

I've discussed genetics here before, regarding other topics.

I'm a general practitioner.

Oh, I see. Finding any would be almost impossible wit the search function broken.

Why don't you go reply to lestatdark and strut your stuff, then. I'd love to hear how you think homophobia is a minor trait of one's personality and not societal. You said you wer eager to prove you knew more about this than him - hop to it!



dtewi said:
lestatdark said:

Like I said in your wall, smaller personality traits are easily coded by DNA. That's because of DNA fingerprinting, that happens during the fusion of both haploid zygotes in the first days of fertilization. 

This DNA fingerprinting randomly methylates certain genomic areas, while keeping other areas unmethylated. When a DNA area is methylated, it cannot be coded by DNA polymerase, thus that trait never appears in protein expression, while if the area is unmethylated, it can be expressed. 

Given that also during this process of DNA fingerprinting, homologous recombination of the zygote aleli happens, there's always an extremely high probability of new traits being formed during this recombination (the recombination rate is 2^38, for non-methylated DNA).

That's why some traits of "personality" are coded by DNA, but it doesn't code for complex traits like if a person is wise or pre-disposed to idiocy. That's due to personal experience and environmental effects.


My 9th grade biology only goes so far!

Hmmm. So would a pre-disposition to say happiness or anger be able to be expressed? How simplistic are these traits?

Those are viable traits to be coded by DNA, to some extent. Some hormones like Serotonine and Dopamine have a direct correlation to the degree of "happiness" or "Sadness" that a person feels.
If both their expression are naturally high, the person would be more predisposed to be happy and to feel well in the world. In the loop-side, if both their expression is naturally low, the person has more disposition to feel depressed. 

Both the synthesis and the expression of those hormones is controlled by the major hormone-control region of the human body, the hypophysis, which is connected to the hyphotalamus as well. Both these centers work in tandem in response to metabolical rhythms and sensorial inputs from the environment. 

So while those traits can be somewhat regarded to DNA expression, the environment plays the larger role in controlling the levels of those hormones. Thus a person will be more or less "happy" in regards to their personal experience.



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lestatdark said:

Those are viable traits to be coded by DNA, to some extent. Some hormones like Serotonine and Dopamine have a direct correlation to the degree of "happiness" or "Sadness" that a person feels.
If both their expression are naturally high, the person would be more predisposed to be happy and to feel well in the world. In the loop-side, if both their expression is naturally low, the person has more disposition to feel depressed. 

Both the synthesis and the expression of those hormones is controlled by the major hormone-control region of the human body, the hypophysis, which is connected to the hyphotalamus as well. Both these centers work in tandem in response to metabolical rhythms and sensorial inputs from the environment. 

So while those traits can be somewhat regarded to DNA expression, the environment plays the larger role in controlling the levels of those hormones. Thus a person will be more or less "happy" in regards to their personal experience.

Good stuff.

Must be nice to be a biologist. You can say that you have a good reason to be angry, bombard everyone with big words, and they'll just leave you alone.



Kimi wa ne tashika ni ano toki watashi no soba ni ita

Itsudatte itsudatte itsudatte

Sugu yoko de waratteita

Nakushitemo torimodosu kimi wo

I will never leave you

lestatdark said:
Slimebeast said:
lestatdark said:

Oh good lord, Slimebeast was actually trying to correlate repulsion of homosexuality as being genetically inherited?. He's the least qualified person to talk about genetics of any sort (just take a look of his arguments in the evolution thread). 

Genetic inheritance and environmental constructs are something entirely different. No kind of biological being can "inscribe" any kind of sociological behaviors into it's own DNA. DNA doesn't code behavioral proteins  

Anyway, i'm pretty mesmerized at the amount of misinformation that some people have shown in this thread. In the information society we live in today, it's a shame that cases like these still occur.

You're again showing how incompetent you are in genetics and biology.

Your arguments in the evolution thread were poor (as if evolution stops at a cell's ability of independent metabolism).

Yes, I correlated repulsion of homosexuality to genetical inheriage, what was wrong with that? I did it in a more sophisticated way than anyone else in the thread.

Bolded: that is simply wrong. I am amazed to read that. Although I don't know what you exactly mean by "environmental constructs" as it is vague, but genes and their proteins indeed determine behaviour in animals as well as in humans.




Oh Slimebeast, there you go with your attacks when your knowledge gets put out in the open

What you're saying is biologically impossible. For this conversation to go further, I would pretty much like for you to demonstrate what you know about DNA, RNA, mRNA, tRNA and how genetic information is processed, deconstructed and then put into biological shape (that is, proteins).

These are the basics of genetics, if you understand them, you'll see that there's no possible way that behaviour is determined by proteins (you're mixing hormone and signal input with behaviour).

Attacks? You started the attacks.

Of course I know the basics of the organization of DNA and the mechanisms of translation into proteins. But it's practically irrelevant to this discussion, but you fail to see that. 

Have you ever heard of polygenic traits? Most of our instincts and behaviour is polygenically determined. There's seldom a unique, complete link between just one gene (protein) and a specific behaviour. But there's a often a clear correlation.

I'm gonna quote you. "there's no possible way that behaviour is determined by proteins (you're mixing hormone and signal input with behaviour)." That sentence is just plain wrong. I it's like I don't know what to say. There's actually geneticists who believe this?

Proteins are just a means, messengers in a long chain of events which ultimately determines a behaviour. All behaviour is multifactoral. All behaviour is at it's basis grounded in inheritance (genetics), to different degrees. But no behaviour is solely "social" or "sociological".

Some genes code for the construction of the basic framework for our mind, our neural neutwork (CSN) with it's wires, which in turn process signals (input).

Some proteins regulate the level of hormones, and hormones in turn are messengers that can affect and thus determine behaviour.

Stimuli from our senses (signal input) is another example of messengers, which through the neuronal network can trigger pre-programmed pathways, including instincts.

Obivously it's hard to pinpoint exactly which DNA sequence is linked to a certain behaviour, since it's all multifactoral, often polygenic and quite complicated with these levels of regulation. We just sequenced the human DNA, and that was peanuts compared to actually determining the functions of all our DNA. This is a huge work for years ahead. We're still in a primitive age.

But there are methods to prove raw correlations between genetics and behaviour, such as the one with the twin study of homophobia I linked to.

There are hundreds if not thousands of behaviours we know are strongly genetically determined. Such as fear of the dark, fear of snakes, fear of heights, getting sexually aroused, the knowledge of how to copulate, kids prefering dolls over cars and vice versa.



dtewi said:
Slimebeast said:
dtewi said:

I thought we were discussing sociological behaviors being coded into DNA, not survival mechanisms They are typically connected.

I am not sure if DNA codes for instincts. Yes it does.

But DNA can't code for sociological behaviors. It's simply implausible. One's behavior in society is determined by knowledge of the society. And your genetic predisposition.

Then their decisions are done according to what's considered normal, lawful, and an enormous amount of other factors. Including instincts, hormones. 

However, the decisions are entirely based upon their knowledge of society. No.

DNA does not code for knowledge, it can't teach you how society works. It can't teach you math. But it determines your potential to understand maths.

That being said, homophobia is a sociological behavior, not an instinct. It's not just a sociological behaviour, it's also based on instincts. No behaviour is purely sociological. I already showed you the study that suggests homophobia in our modern society is inherited more than it's determined by environmental. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18347968

DNA does not code for homophobia! Yes it does, through the repulsions we talked about last night.

My reply in bold.


Your argument is using the idea that a predetermined personality also influences the behaviors of oneself in society. Well, duh. (I said an enormous amount of other factors, personality included) But that's just it. The homophobia is not coded into one's DNA! You also know that the environment one is in also molds their personality? Their DNA coded personality is not the only factor that would determine their behavior towards homosexuals. In fact, it's one of the least prevalent factors in determining it.

If their knowledge of society was based around the idea that homosexuality is the norm, would their personality interfere with this idea? No. Personality does determine one's behavior in society, but their knowledge of what is normal and not normal are much more enormous factors in determining their hatred. If they gather people with every type of personality, wiped their memories clear, and told them homosexuality was normal, they would not have any homophobia.

I never ever even implied that homophobia is only genetically determined.

It's multifactural, a combo between several genes together with environmental stimuli.

"If they gather people with every type of personality, wiped their memories clear, and told them homosexuality was normal, they would not have any homophobia."
You don't know this. But the term homohobia includes the repulsion I've been talking about (for anyone reading, homophobia is not just evil hate-speech and persecution). The natural aversion a typical heterosexual man (not all, but most!) feels towards the thought of licking another man's nuts. You don't take that away by erasing their memory.



Slimebeast said:

I never ever even implied that homophobia is only genetically determined.

It's multifactural, a combo between several genes together with environmental stimuli.

"If they gather people with every type of personality, wiped their memories clear, and told them homosexuality was normal, they would not have any homophobia."
You don't know this. But the term homohobia includes the repulsion I've been talking about (for anyone reading, homophobia is not just hate-speech and persecution). The natural aversion a typical heterosexual man (not all, but most!) feels towards the thought of licking another man's nuts. You don't take that away by erasing their memory.

Oh for god's sake... That's not homophobia. That's heterosexuality!





Kimi wa ne tashika ni ano toki watashi no soba ni ita

Itsudatte itsudatte itsudatte

Sugu yoko de waratteita

Nakushitemo torimodosu kimi wo

I will never leave you

Slimebeast said:

I never ever even implied that homophobia is only genetically determined.

It's multifactural, a combo between several genes together with environmental stimuli.

"If they gather people with every type of personality, wiped their memories clear, and told them homosexuality was normal, they would not have any homophobia."
You don't know this. But the term homohobia includes the repulsion I've been talking about (for anyone reading, homophobia is not just hate-speech and persecution). The natural aversion a typical heterosexual man (not all, but most!) feels towards the thought of licking another man's nuts. You don't take that away by erasing their memory.

Hold up. You can't equate heterosexuality with homophobia, that undermiens the meaning of the latter word. Attraction to the opposite sex is not the same thing as revulsion felt toward homosexuals.