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Forums - Sony - Sony to use Nvidia Tegra for PSP2; explains delay

Christian973 on 15 July 2010
twistedcellz said:

I dont think we need handheld graphics to pass xbox 1,so if sony is thinkin to go over that then i think they'll loose big money .Btw, the only game I seen Gameplay from the 3DS was Kid Icarus and Metal Gear and those 2 games might look good but far from lookin better than gamecube games like RE4,Luigi,Mansion, Prime,twilight princess and many others.

for those sayin 3DS graphics are better than GC, I dont know where do yall get this from but for now I say wait till we see gameplay from RE revelation


The GPU specs says otherwise. That's where we are getting all of our speculation. The GPU is capable of a lot more visuals than those 2 games offered .



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darkknightkryta on 15 July 2010
Christian973 said:
twistedcellz said:

I dont think we need handheld graphics to pass xbox 1,so if sony is thinkin to go over that then i think they'll loose big money .Btw, the only game I seen Gameplay from the 3DS was Kid Icarus and Metal Gear and those 2 games might look good but far from lookin better than gamecube games like RE4,Luigi,Mansion, Prime,twilight princess and many others.

for those sayin 3DS graphics are better than GC, I dont know where do yall get this from but for now I say wait till we see gameplay from RE revelation


The GPU specs says otherwise. That's where we are getting all of our speculation. The GPU is capable of a lot more visuals than those 2 games offered .

Last I checked the GPU specs are in line with the PSPs specs.  With a better shader pipeline I'm guessing.  So with that said I don't think anyone but Nintendo and the GPU manufacturers really know what's in the 3DS.  Though there's to much disparity between Capcom games and everyone elses to really know what power the 3DS can afford.



FlyingLotus on 15 July 2010

Bettter graphical power doesn't make a better console/handheld  and sony wants to wait 10 years with the psp which is ridiculous.



SOLIDSNAKE08 said:

its been confirmed today that GT5 has a weather system, track editor and go karts! seriously i think this is going to be the best selling in the series even beating GT3 sales of 14 million plus!

Soleron on 15 July 2010
Christian973 said:
twistedcellz said:
...


The GPU specs says otherwise. That's where we are getting all of our speculation. The GPU is capable of a lot more visuals than those 2 games offered .

We don't know which variant of the Pica200 it is. The very earliest ones have only a quarter of the capability of the latest, and there are different models and process nodes. Nintendo may also have customised the chip.

The best information we have is the game demos from E3. And I think it could handle Mario Sunshine at a stretch.



dahuman on 15 July 2010
jarrod said:
dahuman said:
jarrod said:
dahuman said:
Soleron said:
jarrod said:
...

GameCube could do soft/self shadowing, normal mapping, specular highlights and subsurface scattering?  News to me. ;)

Agreed. The effects are better and the chip is easier to work with. However the number of textures/polygons look to me to be Gamecube level, in that I can imagine Mario Sunshine being at the limit of what the chip could display assuming the E3 demos show off the chip well.

The GPU core in 3DS is based on DMP's PICA chip, which dates back to 2006 as the first iteration btw.  I'm not sure why you're using ATi chips to try and give a timeline versus Tegra?

The Gamecube used an ATI chip that dates in architecture from 2001. Since I'm guessing the  Pica200's chip is about GC capability, and that Tegra is about GF6 capability, I'm measuring the differential in desktop-GPU-years.

Of course both chips were designed much later than those dates, but handheld GPU capability tends to be in step with desktop GPU capability, just X years apart from needing Y number of die shrinks to get the power envelope to ~1/30 of its previous size.

Restated: they can make a chip as capable as 10 years ago now but with 1/30 of the power use.



he was just being a smart ass, the cube can do all those and more, but you have to work on a fixed pipeline if you want a lot of other things which can be very inefficient on performance. Pica unfortunately is in that same state but with a very updated design and supports GL ES1.1(which is 1.5 really) so people can do much more since it supports the common important effects of today's games.

Wii could maybe, but it's my understanding that GameCube's nerfed memory architecture inhibited a lot of use for the TEV.  Of course, developer apathy seems to have made pushing TEV on Wii an equally futile proposition.  At least Wii managed normal mapping and rim lighting. :/

Also, the NV2A  in the Xbox was technically a fixed pipeline chip.  People tend to associate the fixed nature of Flipper as what held it back, but it was really just familiarity with the APIs.  That's something that Xbox and now 3DS don't suffer, thankfully.

actually, you have the thing in reverse, NV2A was one of the first to have programmable pipelines, but the xbox was too much like a PC and had bottlenecks when it came to memory, the Cube parts worked much better in sync than the original Xbox ever could. The problem if you ask me, was the limited storage with the mini DVD in the cube, stupid decision.

But GC only had 24MB of really usable RAM (plus the 3MB on die)?  I thought that was the chief limiting factor in really pushing the system?

And yeah, I know Xbox was terrible when it came to efficiency, but it was my understanding that Pixel Shader 1.1 is fixed function register combiners (similar to TEV) and that's what NVA2 (GeForce3 series based) used?  It wasn't truly programmable (just as the PICA200 core in 3DS isn't), just better exploited, supported and documented than what we saw with TEV?


That's the libary that it used in a windows environment, just like the most modern cards support shader model 5, but it's not limited to it and is more flexible if you work directly with the hardware. the pica is on a fixed pipeline but supports hell of a lot more functions than what the NV2A could ever offer, it's no ES 2.1, but ES 1.1 isn't too shabby.

GC memory worked much better than what the XboX had to offer, so they end up being about the same.



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dahuman on 15 July 2010
Jo21 said:
dahuman said:
Soleron said:
jarrod said:
...

GameCube could do soft/self shadowing, normal mapping, specular highlights and subsurface scattering?  News to me. ;)

Agreed. The effects are better and the chip is easier to work with. However the number of textures/polygons look to me to be Gamecube level, in that I can imagine Mario Sunshine being at the limit of what the chip could display assuming the E3 demos show off the chip well.

The GPU core in 3DS is based on DMP's PICA chip, which dates back to 2006 as the first iteration btw.  I'm not sure why you're using ATi chips to try and give a timeline versus Tegra?

The Gamecube used an ATI chip that dates in architecture from 2001. Since I'm guessing the  Pica200's chip is about GC capability, and that Tegra is about GF6 capability, I'm measuring the differential in desktop-GPU-years.

Of course both chips were designed much later than those dates, but handheld GPU capability tends to be in step with desktop GPU capability, just X years apart from needing Y number of die shrinks to get the power envelope to ~1/30 of its previous size.

Restated: they can make a chip as capable as 10 years ago now but with 1/30 of the power use.



he was just being a smart ass, the cube can do all those and more, but you have to work on a fixed pipeline if you want a lot of other things which can be very inefficient on performance. Pica unfortunately is in that same state but with a very updated design and supports GL ES1.1(which is 1.5 really) so people can do much more since it supports the common important effects of today's games.


tegra and powerVR 5 are opengl 2.0, tegra problem was battery, sony makes batteries i just hope fuel and next gen battery were ready.. li-ion -polymer batteries are starting to show it age.

the future is to conserve energy, not using more, the delay is a good thing if it's true.



twistedcellz on 15 July 2010
Soleron said:
Christian973 said:
twistedcellz said:
...


The GPU specs says otherwise. That's where we are getting all of our speculation. The GPU is capable of a lot more visuals than those 2 games offered .

We don't know which variant of the Pica200 it is. The very earliest ones have only a quarter of the capability of the latest, and there are different models and process nodes. Nintendo may also have customised the chip.

The best information we have is the game demos from E3. And I think it could handle Mario Sunshine at a stretch.

That would be crazy cuz Sunshine graphics still looks better than most of Wii games,I hope the 3ds could do that but Nintendo usually show top graphics game for their launch consoles (Mario 64,Sunshine,Galaxy) but Kid Icarus didnt look much like GC game.I still think the 3DS can do better cuz MGS did look a little better than the ps2 one,I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Either way I dont really care about graphics cuz a Paper Mario and Resident Evil was enough to me to consider buying it but with a remake of Starfox 64,show me some footage and Ill be sold for sure.



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dahuman on 15 July 2010
darkknightkryta said:
Christian973 said:
twistedcellz said:

I dont think we need handheld graphics to pass xbox 1,so if sony is thinkin to go over that then i think they'll loose big money .Btw, the only game I seen Gameplay from the 3DS was Kid Icarus and Metal Gear and those 2 games might look good but far from lookin better than gamecube games like RE4,Luigi,Mansion, Prime,twilight princess and many others.

for those sayin 3DS graphics are better than GC, I dont know where do yall get this from but for now I say wait till we see gameplay from RE revelation


The GPU specs says otherwise. That's where we are getting all of our speculation. The GPU is capable of a lot more visuals than those 2 games offered .

Last I checked the GPU specs are in line with the PSPs specs.  With a better shader pipeline I'm guessing.  So with that said I don't think anyone but Nintendo and the GPU manufacturers really know what's in the 3DS.  Though there's to much disparity between Capcom games and everyone elses to really know what power the 3DS can afford.


that would be incorrect as the PSP doesn't have a GPU since the performance can't be compared even. =P



dahuman on 15 July 2010
disolitude said:
Soleron said:
disolitude said:

Tegra will do just fine as the all in one solution for a portable device. These portable devices don't need to be powerhouse systems.

When you have a screen of 400-something x 280 something and are rendering games at that resolution, you really don't need anything better than Gerofce  6


I haven't seen much concern about the performance. It is fast; much faster than the 3DS will be. The issue is power consumption and related delays. The Tegra was claimed to have hundreds of design wins, then 90% of them never materialsed for that reason.

Even then, if the PSP2 doesn't have glasses-free 3D then it may well lose the graphics 'war' too (not that it makes much difference to sales). But that's not related to the choice of graphics chip.

I think the fact its an all in one cpu/gpu solution will give them similar battery performance to the PSP 1 which is all that is needed really. I have not read much about Tegra 2 battery performance, but Zune HD with Tegra 1 chip has had nothing but praise about battery life from what I've heard.

I'd be surprised if Sony used a tegra chip for PSP to be honest. Sony likes to own their hardware designs... Portable gaming is not a be all/end all of computing performance and Sony should be able to crank out a sufficient processor rather quickly for this application that is comparable to Apples A4 or intel atom.


keep in mind that the zune is not meant to be a gaming machine constantly pumping out max graphics possible but a media player, so it doesn't require that much power by that design.



makingmusic476 on 15 July 2010

Sheesh.  This isn't a good sign.  Why does Sony always have issues with nVidia.  They had similar problems with the RSX just before the ps3's launch.  They had to downclock it from 550mhz to 500 at the last second due to heat issues.

I hope they get everything ironed out, and I hope this doesn't lead to yet another console that has a launch price that doesn't quite match the machine's capabilites.