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Forums - Nintendo - Two years without new Mario games starting from Q3 2012

Gamerace on 11 May 2010
Alby_da_Wolf said:
Gamerace said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:
mike_intellivision said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:
Gamerace said:
Wii___ titles sell a lot more than Mario___. Unless they're Mario ____ Wii.

Regardless, success for 3rd parties is about developing quality brands on Wii with mass market appeal. Problem is they keep sullying their efforts with mediocre titles. Sonic is notorious for it, EA is trying to establish MySims but has been wildly inconsistent with the quality.
Capcom's done a good job with the Resident Evil franchise but it's not mass market enough.

Probably the most established brands on Wii outside of Nintendo is Guitar Hero, Rock Band and Lego which all have broad appeal and had consistent efforts (well, RB started poorly but gradually improved and yes, I'm ignoring Lego Rock Band just like everyone else did). Call of Duty has done well with consistently good titles. Etc.

Hype won't sell on Wii. Brands that equate to quality and family fun do. Problem is outside of those mentioned, no one has or is, developing such brands (besides Nintendo).

Original Nintendo Wii ___ games slaughter a lot of crappy 3rd party "Wii Too" games, this is good, not bad.

But Mario is a cannibal also for good 3rd party games, when he's around it's as if nothing else existed.

Well, we don't know what (if, admittedly anything) Nintendo communicated to third parties.

What I do know if that without first party games, the sales of the unit would slow. Then third parties would use that excuse not to develop for it.

Basically, Nintendo zagged while the rest of the industry zigged. It has split things into two almost equal parts. And most third parties are so heavily invested on the HD side (Xbox 360 and PS3) that they cannot change if they wanted to do so.

Mike from Morgantown

And also @Puffy and @Games4Fun:

No, no!  Not 2 years without 1st party games, just without Mario! IMHO Nintendo is perfectly right when it slaughters bad Wii-Something-like games, my wacky theory is that it's only Mario that kills good games too. Mario caters too much for early Nintendo die-hard adopters, then the addiction is passed to new users too, they can't build a new Mario-free majority, as they didn't buy Wii all at once, but they did and are doing it gradually (although at a spectacular rate), so they never got a chance to overwhelme the old Mario order, but as soon as they join they get brainwashed by older Mario priests and evil Mario himself and they become marioholics, then 3rd parties are domed even if they release good games. It's a plumber conspiracy!

 

You're giving Mario far too much credit.   Wii has already brought on many non-Mario fans who buy primarily Wii ___ titles.   Mario titles don't sell as well as Wii____ titles.   SMG sold about 9m, Mario Party 8 about 8m, Mario Super Sluggers and Strikers Charged (and NPC Tennis) about 1m each.   The exceptions being the two Mario Wii titles - Mario Kart Wii at 21m and NSMB Wii which will pass 20m too.     Meanwhile Wii Sports Resort, Wii Play, Wii Fit are all 20m+ (or soon will be) and even the 'epic fail' Wii Music sold about 4m which is a major hit for any other franchise and far more than most 'Mario' titles.

Instead of releasing Mario Party 9 which would likely sell another 5-8m, Nintendo is making Wii Party which will likely sell 10-20m.   Mario isn't a problem, in fact he's a necessary touchstone to connect the new 'Wii' audience to the more core 'Mario/Nintendo' audience.

Mike is right.  The problem isn't Mario.   It's that Nintendo Zagged while the industry zigged and the industry is too set to follow Nintendo's lead. 

Yes, this is true, but it's just because 3rd party "grok" traditional gaming more than new Wii one that Mario, despite having lower sales than WiiFit or WiiSports, overwhelmes them more: Mario appeals to core gamers, and they are the ones 3rd parties are still more prepared to satisfy. Maybe 3rd parties will be prepared also for new styles of gaming by next gen, but during this one the more traditional ones are their forte, that's why Mario hits them harder, about party, sports and fitness games they wouldn't excel even if Nintendo stopped selling WiiFit and WiiSports, indeed to get some grip there they must learn from Nintendo, not whine. But Mario has a carisma so excessive that he takes the vast majority of Nintendo core gamers. This one of mine is a paradox, anyway, I perfectly know Nintendo would be crazy to stop selling Mario for so long, but the problem exists. And saying every 3rd party game is crap is simply false, it can be true for most casual 3rd party shovelware, but games praised by both users and critics sold under what they deserved, despite the huge Wii user base. Good for Sony and MS anyway...

 

I see your point but Mario wasn't built in a day or a couple of years.   It's a brand that's been established over decades now of fun, quality titles.   They only way anyone will ever compete with Mario, on Mario's own turf, is to build an even stronger brand.  That takes a long time and won't happen within this generation.    Problem is, no one, except Nintendo has maintained a brand for so long (in good condition).  Nintendo does it all the time, Zelda, Mario, Pokemon, Kirby, etc.    All are ancient brands by gaming standards.   Where's Pac-man? Frogger? Rayman? Crash Bandicoot? Spyro? Sonic? Bonk?  Bomberman?  Etc., etc.   All ruined their potential by too many mediocore titles and poor useages of the brand.

Two years simply isn't enough, someone would need 10 at least to make a better Mario.   The only company I honestly think could do it is Capcom but that's not their style.  Everyone else seems obsessed with milking franchises to death not establishing long term brands.



 

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Alby_da_Wolf on 12 May 2010
Gamerace said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:
Gamerace said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:
mike_intellivision said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:
Gamerace said:
Wii___ titles sell a lot more than Mario___. Unless they're Mario ____ Wii.

Regardless, success for 3rd parties is about developing quality brands on Wii with mass market appeal. Problem is they keep sullying their efforts with mediocre titles. Sonic is notorious for it, EA is trying to establish MySims but has been wildly inconsistent with the quality.
Capcom's done a good job with the Resident Evil franchise but it's not mass market enough.

Probably the most established brands on Wii outside of Nintendo is Guitar Hero, Rock Band and Lego which all have broad appeal and had consistent efforts (well, RB started poorly but gradually improved and yes, I'm ignoring Lego Rock Band just like everyone else did). Call of Duty has done well with consistently good titles. Etc.

Hype won't sell on Wii. Brands that equate to quality and family fun do. Problem is outside of those mentioned, no one has or is, developing such brands (besides Nintendo).

Original Nintendo Wii ___ games slaughter a lot of crappy 3rd party "Wii Too" games, this is good, not bad.

But Mario is a cannibal also for good 3rd party games, when he's around it's as if nothing else existed.

Well, we don't know what (if, admittedly anything) Nintendo communicated to third parties.

What I do know if that without first party games, the sales of the unit would slow. Then third parties would use that excuse not to develop for it.

Basically, Nintendo zagged while the rest of the industry zigged. It has split things into two almost equal parts. And most third parties are so heavily invested on the HD side (Xbox 360 and PS3) that they cannot change if they wanted to do so.

Mike from Morgantown

And also @Puffy and @Games4Fun:

No, no!  Not 2 years without 1st party games, just without Mario! IMHO Nintendo is perfectly right when it slaughters bad Wii-Something-like games, my wacky theory is that it's only Mario that kills good games too. Mario caters too much for early Nintendo die-hard adopters, then the addiction is passed to new users too, they can't build a new Mario-free majority, as they didn't buy Wii all at once, but they did and are doing it gradually (although at a spectacular rate), so they never got a chance to overwhelme the old Mario order, but as soon as they join they get brainwashed by older Mario priests and evil Mario himself and they become marioholics, then 3rd parties are domed even if they release good games. It's a plumber conspiracy!

 

You're giving Mario far too much credit.   Wii has already brought on many non-Mario fans who buy primarily Wii ___ titles.   Mario titles don't sell as well as Wii____ titles.   SMG sold about 9m, Mario Party 8 about 8m, Mario Super Sluggers and Strikers Charged (and NPC Tennis) about 1m each.   The exceptions being the two Mario Wii titles - Mario Kart Wii at 21m and NSMB Wii which will pass 20m too.     Meanwhile Wii Sports Resort, Wii Play, Wii Fit are all 20m+ (or soon will be) and even the 'epic fail' Wii Music sold about 4m which is a major hit for any other franchise and far more than most 'Mario' titles.

Instead of releasing Mario Party 9 which would likely sell another 5-8m, Nintendo is making Wii Party which will likely sell 10-20m.   Mario isn't a problem, in fact he's a necessary touchstone to connect the new 'Wii' audience to the more core 'Mario/Nintendo' audience.

Mike is right.  The problem isn't Mario.   It's that Nintendo Zagged while the industry zigged and the industry is too set to follow Nintendo's lead. 

Yes, this is true, but it's just because 3rd party "grok" traditional gaming more than new Wii one that Mario, despite having lower sales than WiiFit or WiiSports, overwhelmes them more: Mario appeals to core gamers, and they are the ones 3rd parties are still more prepared to satisfy. Maybe 3rd parties will be prepared also for new styles of gaming by next gen, but during this one the more traditional ones are their forte, that's why Mario hits them harder, about party, sports and fitness games they wouldn't excel even if Nintendo stopped selling WiiFit and WiiSports, indeed to get some grip there they must learn from Nintendo, not whine. But Mario has a carisma so excessive that he takes the vast majority of Nintendo core gamers. This one of mine is a paradox, anyway, I perfectly know Nintendo would be crazy to stop selling Mario for so long, but the problem exists. And saying every 3rd party game is crap is simply false, it can be true for most casual 3rd party shovelware, but games praised by both users and critics sold under what they deserved, despite the huge Wii user base. Good for Sony and MS anyway...

 

I see your point but Mario wasn't built in a day or a couple of years.   It's a brand that's been established over decades now of fun, quality titles.   They only way anyone will ever compete with Mario, on Mario's own turf, is to build an even stronger brand.  That takes a long time and won't happen within this generation.    Problem is, no one, except Nintendo has maintained a brand for so long (in good condition).  Nintendo does it all the time, Zelda, Mario, Pokemon, Kirby, etc.    All are ancient brands by gaming standards.   Where's Pac-man? Frogger? Rayman? Crash Bandicoot? Spyro? Sonic? Bonk?  Bomberman?  Etc., etc.   All ruined their potential by too many mediocore titles and poor useages of the brand.

Two years simply isn't enough, someone would need 10 at least to make a better Mario.   The only company I honestly think could do it is Capcom but that's not their style.  Everyone else seems obsessed with milking franchises to death not establishing long term brands.

Alas this is sad but true, continuity tend to happen, gamers themselves ask for it when they like some new franchise, but quality is too often ruined by short termed and sighted greed. Let's just hope publishers like Activision learn a hard lesson about this before it's too late...



Stwike him, Centuwion. Stwike him vewy wuffly! (Pontius Pilate, "Life of Brian")
A fart without stink is like a sky without stars.
TGS, Third Grade Shooter: brand new genre invented by Kevin Butler exclusively for Natal WiiToo Kinect. PEW! PEW-PEW-PEW!   


Joelcool7 on 12 May 2010

lol no Mario for two years? I wouldn't mind all that much as long as Nintendo gave us other franchises like Kirby, Donkey Kong and StarFox. If Nintendo gave us some of their other IP's I would actually love to see Mario go bye bye temporarily of course. But to achieve higher success among third parties, heck no.

As Puffy pointed out third parties did not do enough to build an audience at the beggining of the Wii. It is way to late for the FPS genre for example. RedSteel one had a massive audience it was a launch title , but UbiSoft screwed up an released it too quickly it turned out mediocre. Then their was our version of FarCry another flop which I purchased. Then for years not a single FPS so then suddenly studios want to make FPS titles on the Wii (Conduit) they put all this effort in and are suprised when the title doesn't sell. Why didn't it sell? The FPS market has just moved to the 360/PS3.

Their are still markets for some genres but studios and publishers neglected huge markets when they supported Wii. The publishers and developers were narrow minded. They saw Nintendo was having success with casual titles, excersize titles and family games. So every publisher focused in and made titles for those genres. This lead to the Wii becoming the console of choice for those genres, but turned off other potential buyers who turned to the competition for their fix.

Fact is you could release a Halo Reach clone on the Wii and it would not break a million. You could have the best ModernWarFare3 and it will not keep up with its 360/PS3 counterparts. Fact is the market for FPS titles and some other genres just isn't there.



-JC7

"In God We Trust - In Games We Play " - Joel Reimer

 

Alby_da_Wolf on 12 May 2010
Joelcool7 said:

lol no Mario for two years? I wouldn't mind all that much as long as Nintendo gave us other franchises like Kirby, Donkey Kong and StarFox. If Nintendo gave us some of their other IP's I would actually love to see Mario go bye bye temporarily of course. But to achieve higher success among third parties, heck no.

As Puffy pointed out third parties did not do enough to build an audience at the beggining of the Wii. It is way to late for the FPS genre for example. RedSteel one had a massive audience it was a launch title , but UbiSoft screwed up an released it too quickly it turned out mediocre. Then their was our version of FarCry another flop which I purchased. Then for years not a single FPS so then suddenly studios want to make FPS titles on the Wii (Conduit) they put all this effort in and are suprised when the title doesn't sell. Why didn't it sell? The FPS market has just moved to the 360/PS3.

Their are still markets for some genres but studios and publishers neglected huge markets when they supported Wii. The publishers and developers were narrow minded. They saw Nintendo was having success with casual titles, excersize titles and family games. So every publisher focused in and made titles for those genres. This lead to the Wii becoming the console of choice for those genres, but turned off other potential buyers who turned to the competition for their fix.

Fact is you could release a Halo Reach clone on the Wii and it would not break a million. You could have the best ModernWarFare3 and it will not keep up with its 360/PS3 counterparts. Fact is the market for FPS titles and some other genres just isn't there.

 

I won't cry for FPS, there are more than enough around, on one platform or the other.   And I won't justify 3rd parties' lazyness and half-assed "casual" games, and I agree with you too about Nintendo pausing Mario and making games with its less used good franchises (I never suggested pausing anything else than him), my point is just the intrusive presence of Mario, it looks like he's able to dwarf even the best 3rd party "core" games.

BTW, milking Mario too much potentially exposes him to the same risks of other overexploited franchises, people could just one day decide they are fed up. Up until now Nintendo has been able to carefully dose the releases, diversifying them across various genres, and Mario always grew as a whole, but die hard Nintendo fans ask some attention to other franchises too and it's also important that Nintendo refreshes some of them, otherwise they could end up being remembered and loved only by fans of longer standing, it would be a creative effort of the past going wasted.

Halo and Mario share the same blessing and curse, they are extremely important for their companies, that must dose with the maximum care their releases, as both starving or inflating them could cause a disaster, I don't envy who must take these decisions.



Stwike him, Centuwion. Stwike him vewy wuffly! (Pontius Pilate, "Life of Brian")
A fart without stink is like a sky without stars.
TGS, Third Grade Shooter: brand new genre invented by Kevin Butler exclusively for Natal WiiToo Kinect. PEW! PEW-PEW-PEW!