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Forums - General - Living in Greece has become incredibly tough right now... :-(

mirgro on 05 May 2010
Akvod said:
mirgro said:
Akvod said:
I don't know anything about the specifics, but the debt NEEDS to be paid. Whatever things there are, whatever priorities there are, whatever responsibilities there are, the debt comes number one. If the fucking country literally defaults and declares bankruptcy, then it's going to be an absolute short term and long term disaster.

I'm sure that with the EU behind Greece and just watching Greece's government 24/7 the necessary action is being taken.

Absolutely false. The reason the US is still #1 is because they have taken up trillions of debt (and pays it back on time. ALWAYS). So if anything, Greece just needs to borrow more! Greatness is born through debt.

 

Also, don't look for pity here. There are places in far worse crisises (?) than Greece. I haven't seen you post anything about those at all yet.

 

The US has NEVER been asked to pay back its debts in any large scale. I can guarantee you that the US will be unable to pay back its debt on time if people wanted their money back right now. Hell even if half the people wanted their money back the US will be fucked in the ass without lube.



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Akvod on 05 May 2010
mirgro said:
Akvod said:
mirgro said:
Akvod said:
I don't know anything about the specifics, but the debt NEEDS to be paid. Whatever things there are, whatever priorities there are, whatever responsibilities there are, the debt comes number one. If the fucking country literally defaults and declares bankruptcy, then it's going to be an absolute short term and long term disaster.

I'm sure that with the EU behind Greece and just watching Greece's government 24/7 the necessary action is being taken.

Absolutely false. The reason the US is still #1 is because they have taken up trillions of debt (and pays it back on time. ALWAYS). So if anything, Greece just needs to borrow more! Greatness is born through debt.

 

Also, don't look for pity here. There are places in far worse crisises (?) than Greece. I haven't seen you post anything about those at all yet.

 

The US has NEVER been asked to pay back its debts in any large scale. I can guarantee you that the US will be unable to pay back its debt on time if people wanted their money back right now. Hell even if half the people wanted their money back the US will be fucked in the ass without lube.

Bonds don't work that way.



TheSource on 06 May 2010

Tell your politicians to read Epicurus, Lao Tzu, and Machievelli.

1) People don't know what they want. Your goal is to have shelter, a loving partner, food, and complete freedom without the risk of punishment.

2) Governing a country is like cooking a small fish - if you overdo it the structure falls apart rapidly.

3) If incompetent ninnies from all walks of life stand in the way of fixing the problems of a society, you have the right to try to weed out their mediocrity if you are a popular, trusted leader.

As long as one is true, two and three can not happen.

 



People are difficult to govern because they have too much knowledge.

When there are more laws, there are more criminals.

- Lao Tzu

Akvod on 06 May 2010
TheSource said:

Tell your politicians to read Epicurus, Lao Tzu, and Machievelli.

1) People don't know what they want. Your goal is to have shelter, a loving partner, food, and complete freedom without the risk of punishment.

2) Governing a country is like cooking a small fish - if you overdo it the structure falls apart rapidly.

3) If incompetent ninnies from all walks of life stand in the way of fixing the problems of a society, you have the right to try to weed out their mediocrity if you are a popular, trusted leader.

As long as one is true, two and three can not happen.

 

Now's not the time to go fucking Hoover...



mrstickball on 06 May 2010
mirgro said:
mrstickball said:
Yes, crap would hit the fan if there was a run on the banks. But in Greece even, that hasn't happened yet. It would take an incredible catastrophe for every nation to ask for its money back.

No one ever said what the US was doing was good. I'm against deficit spending more than anyone. Its a very bad thing to do.

However, the alternatives are horrible. The opposite (communism) calls for the destruction of private entities, which has always led to horrible results.

In fact, I'd argue that the US going halfway, into a socialist system like we have is the cause. Its not capitalisms fault. Its the establishment of various types of government programs that cannot be funded that are causing the problems. Capitalism would want free markets that put the responsibility for most services on the people, and not the government....What we have is the opposite in many countries.

So in fact, the problems the US, Greece and others is too much socialism.

I cannot clearly remember the problems back in the 80s, but as an educated guess I doubt that it was the socialistic programs that caused the problems back then, especially since the majority of the Baby Boom population was actually funding the programs, not draining them. Furthermore, it was Capitalism that fucked the US back in '29 and it's rampant capitalism and lack of regulation that fucked the world this time around as well.On the other hand, the Russian economy fell under for many reasons, one big one being too much regulation. Both systems are utter trash.

I actually just recently learned who Kaynes was, but apparently I have been his diehard fan for a long time now. He is absolutely correct in what he said, when it comes to the economy as a large, capitalism fails miserably. The reason is simple, people are greedy fuckers and bastards, and you need to whip them into shape so that the economy in general doesn't go to shit. The crisis that jsut hit now is a perfect example of what happens when you have free greedy people and let them run free.

Capitalism sounds just as good as Communism does on paper, and it's about as effective too. I can't think of any world economy crisis ocurring because of regulated businesses.

So, explain to me exactly how capitalist, free-market changes to America during the late 20s and early 30s caused the great depression. Go on, I have the time to wait.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

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mirgro on 06 May 2010
Akvod said:

Bonds don't work that way.

That is true, the initial Bonds from the 80s are about to start maturing. The notes from the 200s and all the borrowing the republicans did are also about to Mature. Give it a few years and if countries wanted to sell their bonds the US will be in deep shit. As in, the US will collapse, deep shit.



Akvod on 06 May 2010
mrstickball said:
mirgro said:
mrstickball said:
Yes, crap would hit the fan if there was a run on the banks. But in Greece even, that hasn't happened yet. It would take an incredible catastrophe for every nation to ask for its money back.

No one ever said what the US was doing was good. I'm against deficit spending more than anyone. Its a very bad thing to do.

However, the alternatives are horrible. The opposite (communism) calls for the destruction of private entities, which has always led to horrible results.

In fact, I'd argue that the US going halfway, into a socialist system like we have is the cause. Its not capitalisms fault. Its the establishment of various types of government programs that cannot be funded that are causing the problems. Capitalism would want free markets that put the responsibility for most services on the people, and not the government....What we have is the opposite in many countries.

So in fact, the problems the US, Greece and others is too much socialism.

I cannot clearly remember the problems back in the 80s, but as an educated guess I doubt that it was the socialistic programs that caused the problems back then, especially since the majority of the Baby Boom population was actually funding the programs, not draining them. Furthermore, it was Capitalism that fucked the US back in '29 and it's rampant capitalism and lack of regulation that fucked the world this time around as well.On the other hand, the Russian economy fell under for many reasons, one big one being too much regulation. Both systems are utter trash.

I actually just recently learned who Kaynes was, but apparently I have been his diehard fan for a long time now. He is absolutely correct in what he said, when it comes to the economy as a large, capitalism fails miserably. The reason is simple, people are greedy fuckers and bastards, and you need to whip them into shape so that the economy in general doesn't go to shit. The crisis that jsut hit now is a perfect example of what happens when you have free greedy people and let them run free.

Capitalism sounds just as good as Communism does on paper, and it's about as effective too. I can't think of any world economy crisis ocurring because of regulated businesses.

So, explain to me exactly how capitalist, free-market changes to America during the late 20s and early 30s caused the great depression. Go on, I have the time to wait.

I don't see how speculation is exclusive to the free market. The free market doesn't guarauntee success, only that those who make a loss, bear the burden of that loss, and those who succeed reap it.

A free market with a bunch of monkeys doesn't result in success.

A free market and Keynesianism can co-exist. Command economy=/=Keyensianism. All Keyensianism is the government simply increasing the ammount of goods and service they buy, cutting taxes, increasing the money supply, giving stimulususes, etc.



Akvod on 06 May 2010
mirgro said:
Akvod said:
 

Bonds don't work that way.

That is true, the initial Bonds from the 80s are about to start maturing. The notes from the 200s and all the borrowing the republicans did are also about to Mature. Give it a few years and if countries wanted to sell their bonds the US will be in deep shit. As in, the US will collapse, deep shit.

I'm not advocating constantly borrowing ammounts of money we can't pay back. I do advocate borrowing and running defeceits NOW, and then making sure we have surpluses after the recession and its effects fade, and the economy begins expanding (I have to take Intermediate Macro and study more economics to learn if we should stop expansionary policies now, or later, due to the recession recently ending, but unemployment still high). And the US bonds will always be very be appealing, because we have such a long history of NEVER DEFAULTING (again, Greece NEEDS to pay its debts, in order to prevent loss of all credibilitiy), and don't have the risk of wars, rebelions, RIOTS, MASS-PROTEST (god dammit Greeks >.<).

And we should have capital inflows, for the very reason that we have such a trade and Current Account defeceit. People will lend us money... provided we are able to pay it back, and/or expected to pay it back.



mirgro on 06 May 2010
mrstickball said:
mirgro said:
mrstickball said:
Yes, crap would hit the fan if there was a run on the banks. But in Greece even, that hasn't happened yet. It would take an incredible catastrophe for every nation to ask for its money back.

No one ever said what the US was doing was good. I'm against deficit spending more than anyone. Its a very bad thing to do.

However, the alternatives are horrible. The opposite (communism) calls for the destruction of private entities, which has always led to horrible results.

In fact, I'd argue that the US going halfway, into a socialist system like we have is the cause. Its not capitalisms fault. Its the establishment of various types of government programs that cannot be funded that are causing the problems. Capitalism would want free markets that put the responsibility for most services on the people, and not the government....What we have is the opposite in many countries.

So in fact, the problems the US, Greece and others is too much socialism.

I cannot clearly remember the problems back in the 80s, but as an educated guess I doubt that it was the socialistic programs that caused the problems back then, especially since the majority of the Baby Boom population was actually funding the programs, not draining them. Furthermore, it was Capitalism that fucked the US back in '29 and it's rampant capitalism and lack of regulation that fucked the world this time around as well.On the other hand, the Russian economy fell under for many reasons, one big one being too much regulation. Both systems are utter trash.

I actually just recently learned who Kaynes was, but apparently I have been his diehard fan for a long time now. He is absolutely correct in what he said, when it comes to the economy as a large, capitalism fails miserably. The reason is simple, people are greedy fuckers and bastards, and you need to whip them into shape so that the economy in general doesn't go to shit. The crisis that jsut hit now is a perfect example of what happens when you have free greedy people and let them run free.

Capitalism sounds just as good as Communism does on paper, and it's about as effective too. I can't think of any world economy crisis ocurring because of regulated businesses.

So, explain to me exactly how capitalist, free-market changes to America during the late 20s and early 30s caused the great depression. Go on, I have the time to wait.

My American Hisotry is a little rusty so bear with me. If I can remember one factor was the simple fact that more goods were produced than people could buy. All the money was kept at the top and since the top people are so few in number and don't need everything produced they didn't buy anymore, meanwhile the lower classes just didn't ave the money and then the businesses didn't get their money back so they became poor too.Regulation could have prevented this.

Then this is the big one that I can remember, the margin requirement for investment was just 10%. For every 1$ I invested, brokers would just give me 9$ as a loan and voila. Huge amounts of people bought huge amounts of stock, and the moment all the brokers wanted their money when things got dicey, the other people couldn't pay. This led to the huge bank runs and the stock market crash. If there was more regulation such would also not happen. It was caused purely by the greed of the people.

 

All this is also ignoring the fact of how the current mess of things happened, which is directly linked to unregulated greed of businesses. People are bastards and assholes, they don't give a shit and hence to prevent a widescale tragedy regulation is needed.



mirgro on 06 May 2010
Akvod said:
mirgro said:
Akvod said:
 

Bonds don't work that way.

That is true, the initial Bonds from the 80s are about to start maturing. The notes from the 200s and all the borrowing the republicans did are also about to Mature. Give it a few years and if countries wanted to sell their bonds the US will be in deep shit. As in, the US will collapse, deep shit.

I'm not advocating constantly borrowing ammounts of money we can't pay back. I do advocate borrowing and running defeceits NOW, and then making sure we have surpluses after the recession and its effects fade, and the economy begins expanding (I have to take Intermediate Macro and study more economics to learn if we should stop expansionary policies now, or later, due to the recession recently ending, but unemployment still high). And the US bonds will always be very be appealing, because we have such a long history of NEVER DEFAULTING (again, Greece NEEDS to pay its debts, in order to prevent loss of all credibilitiy), and don't have the risk of wars, rebelions, RIOTS, MASS-PROTEST (god dammit Greeks >.<).

And we should have capital inflows, for the very reason that we have such a trade and Current Account defeceit. People will lend us money... provided we are able to pay it back, and/or expected to pay it back.

See you are not getting my point. If people wanted their money back in a few years, shit can really go down hill. Even if people want half of the debt back, things will get ugly. That's about 6 trillion out of the economy, hell even a quarter of 3 trillion will be very devastating. The US won't default, but it will get very miserable.