Mirgro,

You are sorely mistaken:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_debt

Greece - 108%

UK - 69%

US - 53%

As for your argument about debt and capitalism, I'd argue that it is hard to have public indebtedness to others, when you control any and all entities that could loan you money (e.g. the banks).

Wait, what?

First off, I'm almost scared to argue with you because I'm afraid you'll launch personal attacks at me.

Second off, how is the U.S. only great now because of all the money it borrowed? If anything, the U.S. would be better off without a huge reliance on loans and a humongous national debt. Nations in Europe have huge debts too, several numbering in the trillions as well, and much higher relative to their GDP. So why aren't they great? Are trillions of dollars not enough for France and Germany to be "great?" You also forgot to mention that Russia defaulted on its debt and in the course of only a decade or so has already incurred almost 100 billion dollars in debt. That's not a huge sum, but it's a far cry from "didn't take on any debt." And yeah, America's power (or "greatness") was built on capitalism. And if American's unparalleled manufacturing and industrial capabilities aren't the result of capitalism, what would it be? Communism?

I hope this doesn't affect my weekly dose of Baklava & Galaktoboureko.... love those.. don't you go bankcrupt on me!

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

I was using this, and I was talking about Gross debt, not just public debt, since the not public debts also influence just how much money is in the US. But yes, if you look at public debt solely then it's closer to 50% than 100%.

As for the whole bank issue, debt is debt. It's money that you should not have. If Reagan hadn't driven up the debt back in the early 80s during the stagflation, the US would have cllapsed just as grandiosely as Russia. Reagan's missile thing never actually ruined Russia, it ruined itself, but what it did was save the US from the exact same fate. It's like saying I won in the number of HDTVs I have because I maxed out my credit card at $75k, while the other people paid in cash.

I'd like to point out that the closest country to the US in debt is the UK, and the US has 50% more debt than the UK. UK being at 9 and the US at 13.5, give or take some billions from either. France and Germany are each at 5, and from there on everything drops off really fast. As for % of GDP, you have to realize that the US was at 3 or 4 trillion by the 90s, they've been growing for the past 2 and a half decades solely because of debt, and incurring even more as they go along so their GDP goes up even more. The more money you have the more money you can produce, unless you are just terrible.

I also never said Communism was any good either, as I pointed out Russia also failed in the 80s. Both systems are as bad and fucked up as the other and both failed miserably in the 80s. It's some point in the middle that works best. I'd also like to point out that 100 billion is 130 times less than what the US is at.

P.S. Figures are all over the damn place and depend on where you look, so I'm not sure if 100 billion is the public debt or the overall debt of Russia, if it's the public then it's obviously less than 130 times.

mirgro -

Given that the entire Greek collapse is due to PUBLIC DEBT, my thought was this was about PUBLIC DEBT.

Still then, if you want to argue private debt and other such debt, Greece is still much higher than the US. You have provided literally zero comparative data for the US versus Greece - your using figures without an analogue between the countries. Until you do, I fail to see why I should pay attention to your arguments.

*edit*

Here is Greece's gross debt. Its still twice as much as the US by GDP:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4e039b0c-521f-11df-8b09-00144feab49a.html

Greece is nearing 200% gross debt vs. its GDP. Comparatively, the US is at 90%.

I never said they should borrow more, they just had to be smart about what they do with borrowed money. Also, have any of the creditors of the US even bothered to ask it for money back? I imagine the US would be in fairly dire straits if that were to happen. Also as I pointed out, while the debt is lower of the overall GDP, it come to mid 40k per person, child or elderly. Given the fact that the average 4 person family, which owes 170k for its 4 members in total, makes 45k a year. Cople that with the fact that under the oh so venerated Capitalistic ideas that the rich shouldn't be taxed, and you can see how the shit will seriously hit the fan if people start wanting their money back.

Yes, crap would hit the fan if there was a run on the banks. But in Greece even, that hasn't happened yet. It would take an incredible catastrophe for every nation to ask for its money back.

No one ever said what the US was doing was good. I'm against deficit spending more than anyone. Its a very bad thing to do.

However, the alternatives are horrible. The opposite (communism) calls for the destruction of private entities, which has always led to horrible results.

In fact, I'd argue that the US going halfway, into a socialist system like we have is the cause. Its not capitalisms fault. Its the establishment of various types of government programs that cannot be funded that are causing the problems. Capitalism would want free markets that put the responsibility for most services on the people, and not the government....What we have is the opposite in many countries.

So in fact, the problems the US, Greece and others is too much socialism.

I cannot clearly remember the problems back in the 80s, but as an educated guess I doubt that it was the socialistic programs that caused the problems back then, especially since the majority of the Baby Boom population was actually funding the programs, not draining them. Furthermore, it was Capitalism that fucked the US back in '29 and it's rampant capitalism and lack of regulation that fucked the world this time around as well.On the other hand, the Russian economy fell under for many reasons, one big one being too much regulation. Both systems are utter trash.

I actually just recently learned who Kaynes was, but apparently I have been his diehard fan for a long time now. He is absolutely correct in what he said, when it comes to the economy as a large, capitalism fails miserably. The reason is simple, people are greedy fuckers and bastards, and you need to whip them into shape so that the economy in general doesn't go to shit. The crisis that jsut hit now is a perfect example of what happens when you have free greedy people and let them run free.

Capitalism sounds just as good as Communism does on paper, and it's about as effective too. I can't think of any world economy crisis ocurring because of regulated businesses.