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Forums - General - What do you think of this anti-religious statement.

Rath on 01 May 2010
TheRealMafoo said:
Rath said:
I really don't geta some Christians. How can they hate gays when they say they follow Jesus? I've read the new testament, Jesus was a loving fellow. He may not have agreed with gays but he sure as hell would've loved them and accepted them.

 

Leviticus 18:22: 
"You shall not lie with a male as those who lie with a female; it is an abomination."
Leviticus 20:13: 
"If a man lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination and they shall surely be put to death."

 

Leviticus 18:22: 
"You shall not lie with a male as those who lie with a female; it is an abomination."

Leviticus 20:13: 
"If a man lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination and they shall surely be put to death."

 

 

This is why.

 

I thought that most of the old testament law (especially Leviticus) had been superceded by the New Testament. Hence why Christians can eat shellfish.

Also the vibe from Jesus in the New Testament is most certainly more inclusive and loving than smitey old testament.

 

Afterall, let he who is without sin cast the first stone.



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sapphi_snake on 01 May 2010
ManusJustus said:
PhoenixKing said:

Also, why are many religions against homosexuality?

Religion is a man-made social construct and is influenced by social evolution.  For instance, a religion that made a society produce more children would be more successful than a society that resulted in less children.  Still, homosexuality is not looked down upon by all religions, in fact the Greeks and Romans were very supprotive of homosexuality, viewing the male body as superior.  On the other hand, Abrahamic religions are strongly opposed to homosexuality, and I think their history plays a major role in this. 

During the time that Judaism was forming, Hebrews were in constant conflict with surrounding nations, and the method to weaken enemies was to kill their males, effectively destroying that enemy nation.  Recall the story of King David conquering Edom and killing every male in the city.  In this type of social environment a high fertility rate produced from heterosexual couples and the ability to have multiple wives would be favorable, and thats exactly what happened.

There are other social evolution factors agaisnt homosexuality as well.  Homosexuals do not produce offspring so there would be no children to take care of them when they age, creating a larger amount of elderly poor.  Thats not to mention how economically beneficial it use to be to have a large number of children to help on the farm.

Fascinating! This explains why mostly Abrahamic religions are against homosexuality. Now if only Christians would realise that we are not some warrior tribe that commits genocide...



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highwaystar101 on 01 May 2010
TheRealMafoo said:
Rath said:
I really don't geta some Christians. How can they hate gays when they say they follow Jesus? I've read the new testament, Jesus was a loving fellow. He may not have agreed with gays but he sure as hell would've loved them and accepted them.

 

Leviticus 18:22: 
"You shall not lie with a male as those who lie with a female; it is an abomination."
Leviticus 20:13: 
"If a man lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination and they shall surely be put to death."

 

Leviticus 18:22: 
"You shall not lie with a male as those who lie with a female; it is an abomination."

Leviticus 20:13: 
"If a man lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination and they shall surely be put to death."

 

 

This is why.

 

Read my post for other "wise" things said in Leviticus.

Leviticus hardly has any bearing on modern society, why someone would want to quote it is mind boggling.



ManusJustus on 01 May 2010
highwaystar101 said:
TheRealMafoo said:
Rath said:
I really don't geta some Christians. How can they hate gays when they say they follow Jesus? I've read the new testament, Jesus was a loving fellow. He may not have agreed with gays but he sure as hell would've loved them and accepted them.

 

Leviticus 18:22: 
"You shall not lie with a male as those who lie with a female; it is an abomination."
Leviticus 20:13: 
"If a man lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination and they shall surely be put to death."

Leviticus 18:22: 
"You shall not lie with a male as those who lie with a female; it is an abomination."

Leviticus 20:13: 
"If a man lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination and they shall surely be put to death."

This is why.

Read my post for other "wise" things said in Leviticus.

Leviticus hardly has any bearing on modern society, why someone would want to quote it is mind boggling.

Nonetheless, its part of the Bible, a book many Christians consider infalliable.  Christians also accept other Old Testament teachings, such as Creation, Noah's Flood, Moses' Exodus, and so forth.

Besides, the argument against gay rights from many Christian groups is that homosexuality is an abomination against God, and this is exactly where they get it.



SeriousWB on 01 May 2010
highwaystar101 said:

Homophobia caused by religion, I hate it so much.

I've never understood why the Abrahamic religions try to justify their hatred towards homosexuals by quoting Leviticus. Outside of Leviticus 18:22 (Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.) their quotes get extremely tenuous.

In fact Leviticus is the only one you ever hear, yet you never hear any other quotes from the book of Leviticus, ever wondered why? Because the book is absolutely batshit crazy, and is pretty much completely obsolete.

It talks about how to beat slaves (after condoning owning them) (25:44),

It talks about how you need to burn the daughters of priests if they have sex (21:9), 

It talks about how all blasphemers should be stoned to death (24;16),

It states that women are lesser humans than men, in fact it drives it in constantly (27:7),

And it commands people to sacrifice a whole menagerie of animals for a whole manner of occasions (sacrifice Bullocks and Goats to prey, lambs for child birth, doves, turtles, etc) (16:15).


The list goes on.

Leviticus is a sickening book, and anyone who thinks they can quote from it to condemn homosexuality is not worthy of living in modern society quite frankly. Why? Because if you justify going against homosexuality by using Leviticus then surely you must condone the rest of the book. And if you think women are lesser than men and that blasphemy is punishable by death, then I don't want your hate crimes in my society.

It is not ok to pick and choose quotes to suit you if you believe the book is "infallible".

The homophobia exists solely as a tool of the church, it's like they have a vendetta against them. There is no biblical justification for homophobia, only the lies that the church has told its followers.

Also, Sodom and Gomorrah was not destroyed due to homosexuality, why do people think it was?

Very well said.  I don't see how people can call the book infallible, only to cherrypick the parts they want.



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highwaystar101 on 01 May 2010
ManusJustus said:
highwaystar101 said:
TheRealMafoo said:
Rath said:
I really don't geta some Christians. How can they hate gays when they say they follow Jesus? I've read the new testament, Jesus was a loving fellow. He may not have agreed with gays but he sure as hell would've loved them and accepted them.

 

Leviticus 18:22: 
"You shall not lie with a male as those who lie with a female; it is an abomination."
Leviticus 20:13: 
"If a man lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination and they shall surely be put to death."

Leviticus 18:22: 
"You shall not lie with a male as those who lie with a female; it is an abomination."

Leviticus 20:13: 
"If a man lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination and they shall surely be put to death."

This is why.

Read my post for other "wise" things said in Leviticus.

Leviticus hardly has any bearing on modern society, why someone would want to quote it is mind boggling.

Nonetheless, its part of the Bible, a book many Christians consider infalliable.  Christians also accept other Old Testament teachings, such as Creation, Noah's Flood, Moses' Exodus, and so forth.

Besides, the argument against gay rights from many Christian groups is that homosexuality is an abomination against God, and this is exactly where they get it.

Yes, I know I said it in my earlier post, they consider it infallible.

So why don't they kill bullocks and lambs when they prey any more? Why don't they actively repress women? Why don't they stone blasphemers to death? Why don't they own slaves?

These things have equal/greater footing than condemning homosexuality in Leviticus, so why is it acceptable for people choose one quote from Leviticus and not another if the book is infallible?

It's just a homophobic agenda set out by the religions that condemn it, it has nothing to do with the religious texts. They have tried to justify their hatred by finding quotes from a book which is completely redundant.

-edit-

I guess what I'm trying to say is that by justifying their position by quoting Leviticus 18:22 and asserting that it is infallible is in effect saying that the whole book is infallible. If someone believes that Leviticus is infallible then they shouldn't be allowed to bring their hate crimes into our modern society.

Maybe I am creating a bit of a quasi-strawman argument, but I don't see how it can be any other way.



dunno001 on 01 May 2010
Zlejedi said:
PhoenixKing said:

Also, why are many religions against homosexuality?

http://www.vatican.va/various/cappelle/sistina_vr/index.html

Those images in the back are full of naked men and women casually acknowledging each other. This is a religious symbol in a very well-known chapel and it's full of homosexual images made many years before any of us were even born. So why is homosexuality unacceptable to some of the more narrow-minded religious followers?

I got better question why do homosexuals care what religion X thinks about them?

And why are they so obsessed on enforcing their believes on other people ?

And how the hell is that picture full of homosexual activity. I don't see anyone performing sexual acts there.

I'll just go in bulletpoint order since that's easiest:

1. Some homosexuals don't care. For instance, I don't care. As far as I'm concerned, if they want to have a hateful view of me, that's their problem, not mine. But others do care. Maybe they were part of that religion before they knew they were gay, and now feel out of place? Maybe it's someone who associates with a lot of beliefs of said religion, but doesn't agree with that aspect?

2. I wouldn't say it as enforcing our beliefs, but rather, having to remind people that yes, we are out there, we are normal people, etc. And why is this "reminder" so "forceful"? Well, that's from the other side, the religious, trying to force their beliefs down everyone's throat. If we just sat back, they probably would try to apply the entire book of Leviticus against us. The "seperation of church and state" in the US is a load of bullshit in practice- great on paper, but it's just not true. Look at how many of their "beliefs" make it into law. Of course, this is also leading down another road not related to this thread, so I'll end it here.

3. The picture is not, as you mention. But people are walking around there naked, and seeing others of the same sex also naked! Gasp, this is horrible! (Though, also, none of them, male or female, are particularly well-endowed...) But we should never see someone of the same sex naked, it's just like homosexuality! In other words, a load of bullshit. Or, another one, rather...



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bimmylee on 01 May 2010
highwaystar101 said:

Yes, I know I said it in my earlier post, they consider it infallible.

So why don't they kill bullocks and lambs when they prey any more? Why don't they actively repress women? Why don't they stone blasphemers to death? Why don't they own slaves?

These things have equal/greater footing than condemning homosexuality in Leviticus, so why is it acceptable for people choose one quote from Leviticus and not another if the book is infallible?

It's just a homophobic agenda set out by the religions that condemn it, it has nothing to do with the religious texts. They have tried to justify their hatred by finding quotes from a book which is completely redundant.

-edit-

I guess what I'm trying to say is that by justifying their position by quoting Leviticus 18:22 and asserting that it is infallible is in effect saying that the whole book is infallible. If someone believes that Leviticus is infallible then they shouldn't be allowed to bring their hate crimes into our modern society.

Maybe I am creating a bit of a quasi-strawman argument, but I don't see how it can be any other way.

You're right, highwaystar. It's very inconsistent to use part of Leviticus and not the whole thing. I do think that Christians who try to use Leviticus in the aforementioned manner are extremely misguided. I will try to shed some light on the subject....

The purpose of Leviticus is confirmed in the final chapters: "These are the decrees, the laws and the regulations that the LORD established on Mount Sinai between himself and the Israelites through Moses" (Lev 26:46). The instructions and requirements outlined in the book govern the relationship between God and Israel only. They are not universal. This message is confirmed in the final verse of the book: "These are the commandments the LORD gave Moses on Mount Sinai for the Israelites" (Lev 27:34).

The rules given in Leviticus were designed to keep Israel separate from the rest of the world, to protect Israel from the influence of other cultures, such as that of Egypt. These things all contributed to the uniqueness of Israel, but they have been fulfilled by Jesus, so they are not mandatory in the modern world. Holiness through cultural separation no longer applies.

Any Christian who tries to use anything in Leviticus (a book of instructions for Israel!!) to condemn others is absolutely in the wrong and is not treating people the way Jesus teaches.



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nightsurge on 01 May 2010

I think it is somewhat wrong to use Leviticus myself. Those verses are often misinterpreted anyways because they are of the old testament. That was before Jesus came to pay the cost of sin. Back then it was pretty much sin once and you're screwed, so they were pretty much all screwed and that's why the old testament sounds to strict and lethal.

New testament, especially after the arrival of Jesus, is where Christians should take their outlook on the world from.



Gamerace on 01 May 2010
bimmylee said:

The quote is flawed because it assumes too much. 'We construct a fantasy about how we are superior to those who don't share our views?' Oh, is that so? I like how the author of this quote is labeling anyone who is "religious" as self-righteous. How insightful.

"Sitting down, Jesus called the Twelve and said, 'If anyone wants to be first, he must be the very last, and the servant of all.'" - Mark 9:35

"Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight." - Isaiah 5:21

These are but two of many, many verses on pride and humility. Jesus befriended thieves and murderers, and Christians are called to live in the same humble manner has he did. While I can't speak for other faiths, any Christian who is being condescending to you isn't following the teachings of Jesus at all.

Furthermore, the author can only assume that we aren't inadequate, unsatisfactory and helpless; in fact, the author seems to want to invalidate such an opinion entirely. Egotistical much?

The true irony of this quote is that the author is making very arrogant assumptions while at the same time calling out religious persons for believing themselves to be "superior".


Yes, my take on that quote is whoever wrote it has only a shallow, if indeed any, understanding of major religions.  Ironically it's the same self-serving stuff you see from agnostics/atheists who tend to think their view, and therefore themselves, are superior (not suggesting they all do).