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Forums - General - Why the world still needs nuclear weapons

FaRmLaNd said:
starcraft said:
MontanaHatchet said:

I think it's pretty silly to disable nuclear weapons when the U.S. spent so much time and money building them in the first place. Why even get rid of them at all? It's a waste. Even if the U.S. gets rid of half its nukes, it will still have enough to bomb every country in the world about 10 times over. So why bother? Just keep them and don't use them.

Because it is incredibly expensive to maintain them. 

The USA could probably make do with a very well maintained 500 nuclear warheads, around a twentieth of the number it currently possesses (Note: Only half of the USA's arsenal is considered "Active").

Even with high spending on fantastic deliver systems, the cost would be a FRACTION of current nuclear weapons maintenance spending.

Edit: Current US spending on nuclear weapons and related programs is upwards of $50 billion per year.

Wow, thats over twice Australias entire budget for the military (which is 24 billion aussie according to wikipedia). Pretty crazy.

I think our budget has crept up higher than that once you account for long term procurement averaged over the procurement time-frame.

That said, given the flaky nature of our current Federal Government, those procurements could be dropped.



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FaRmLaNd said:
TheRealMafoo said:
FaRmLaNd said:
starcraft said:
MontanaHatchet said:

I think it's pretty silly to disable nuclear weapons when the U.S. spent so much time and money building them in the first place. Why even get rid of them at all? It's a waste. Even if the U.S. gets rid of half its nukes, it will still have enough to bomb every country in the world about 10 times over. So why bother? Just keep them and don't use them.

Because it is incredibly expensive to maintain them. 

The USA could probably make do with a very well maintained 500 nuclear warheads, around a twentieth of the number it currently possesses (Note: Only half of the USA's arsenal is considered "Active").

Even with high spending on fantastic deliver systems, the cost would be a FRACTION of current nuclear weapons maintenance spending.

Edit: Current US spending on nuclear weapons and related programs is upwards of $50 billion per year.

Wow, thats over twice Australias entire budget for the military (which is 24 billion aussie according to wikipedia). Pretty crazy.

Currently, we spend 19% of our federal budget in military spending. That number should be closer to 90%. Defending our country from others is the one thing the federal government should be doing. The rest should be spent at a state level.

So imo, we spend way to much on the military. We should cut that spending (but not with respect to nukes), cut almost all the other spending, collect far less taxes at a federal level, and if states want to collect more taxes and run social programs, that's up to them.

 

Absolutely correct. America doesn't need to spend the amount of money it does to defend itself. Hell Australia is pretty much untouchable by everyone outside of some of our allies (USA, Britain) and we have next to no people in a comparable landmass.

I've often thought about America's standing nuclear and conventional arsenals.  You'd have to think that with say, two or three less carrier fleets, you'd be able to project the same or similar amount of power you currently do relative to the rest of the world.  And I couldn't see that having any effect on your home defense.

But you would save tens, even hundreds of billions a year.



starcraft - Playing Games = FUN, Talking about Games = SERIOUS

starcraft said:
FaRmLaNd said:

Absolutely correct. America doesn't need to spend the amount of money it does to defend itself. Hell Australia is pretty much untouchable by everyone outside of some of our allies (USA, Britain) and we have next to no people in a comparable landmass.

I've often thought about America's standing nuclear and conventional arsenals.  You'd have to think that with say, two or three less carrier fleets, you'd be able to project the same or similar amount of power you currently do relative to the rest of the world.  And I couldn't see that having any effect on your home defense.

But you would save tens, even hundreds of billions a year.

The US still needs the carriers.

What the US doesn't need is to have soldiers in 156 countries around the world. 156 countries. Do we really need to be Team America: World Police? No. Not by a long shot. Of those 156 countries, we have 255,000 soldiers overseas. Each of those 255,000 soldiers cost money. Not just to America, but the money is also likely being spent overseas too - if you have a US soldier in Germany, there is a high likelihood that he will spend some of his money there, providing for their economy, not ours.

If we got out of Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as removed all troops from every foreign country sans Korea and Japan (but reduced forces there, and re-negotiated a treaty with Japan allowing them to have a more robust military), we could save tens or even hundreds of billions of dollars a year - far more than nixing a carrier, which I believe we need as we do need a mobile army. We just don't need an army that is in well over half of the nations worldwide.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

mrstickball said:
starcraft said:
FaRmLaNd said:

Absolutely correct. America doesn't need to spend the amount of money it does to defend itself. Hell Australia is pretty much untouchable by everyone outside of some of our allies (USA, Britain) and we have next to no people in a comparable landmass.

I've often thought about America's standing nuclear and conventional arsenals.  You'd have to think that with say, two or three less carrier fleets, you'd be able to project the same or similar amount of power you currently do relative to the rest of the world.  And I couldn't see that having any effect on your home defense.

But you would save tens, even hundreds of billions a year.

The US still needs the carriers.

What the US doesn't need is to have soldiers in 156 countries around the world. 156 countries. Do we really need to be Team America: World Police? No. Not by a long shot. Of those 156 countries, we have 255,000 soldiers overseas. Each of those 255,000 soldiers cost money. Not just to America, but the money is also likely being spent overseas too - if you have a US soldier in Germany, there is a high likelihood that he will spend some of his money there, providing for their economy, not ours.

If we got out of Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as removed all troops from every foreign country sans Korea and Japan (but reduced forces there, and re-negotiated a treaty with Japan allowing them to have a more robust military), we could save tens or even hundreds of billions of dollars a year - far more than nixing a carrier, which I believe we need as we do need a mobile army. We just don't need an army that is in well over half of the nations worldwide.

That's actually over two thirds of nations I believe.  I agree entirely with your first (main) paragraph.  The USA does not need to be in a large number of the countries it is in, and as such could save enormously here.

But when last I checked (which I admit was a while ago) the USA had eleven carriers in service, ten of which were Nimitz class.  Nimitz is by far the most advanced carrier in service anywhere, and the nearest rival nation to the USA is Britain, with three carriers that are generally seen as second rate.  They are in the process of replacing them with two much more advanced carriers, but I still doubt they'll be more advanced than Nimitz, and certainly not better than the Ford carrier you've started building. 

So to recap, you have eleven of the very best carriers, and most of the active carriers in the world are directly in the hands of your allies Britain and France.  Even with the potential for Russia and China to launch their own carriers (you'd have too think two each at MOST and unlikely to be as advanced as the USA's) sometime this decade, eleven is just ridiculous.

And you have to remember much of what some of these carrier fleets are doing now is supporting your troops overseas.  If they aren't overseas, why do you need eleven carriers and supporting fleets?



starcraft - Playing Games = FUN, Talking about Games = SERIOUS

starcraft said:

That's actually over two thirds of nations I believe.  I agree entirely with your first (main) paragraph.  The USA does not need to be in a large number of the countries it is in, and as such could save enormously here.

But when last I checked (which I admit was a while ago) the USA had eleven carriers in service, ten of which were Nimitz class.  Nimitz is by far the most advanced carrier in service anywhere, and the nearest rival nation to the USA is Britain, with three carriers that are generally seen as second rate.  They are in the process of replacing them with two much more advanced carriers, but I still doubt they'll be more advanced than Nimitz, and certainly not better than the Ford carrier you've started building. 

So to recap, you have eleven of the very best carriers, and most of the active carriers in the world are directly in the hands of your allies Britain and France.  Even with the potential for Russia and China to launch their own carriers (you'd have too think two each at MOST and unlikely to be as advanced as the USA's) sometime this decade, eleven is just ridiculous.

And you have to remember much of what some of these carrier fleets are doing now is supporting your troops overseas.  If they aren't overseas, why do you need eleven carriers and supporting fleets?

It cost a lot less to be so powerful no one would think to attack you, then it does to fight a war.

We have, and should keep, that power. What we need to fix, is stop giving people real reasons to want to attack us.

A good analogy would be if you were the strongest bad ass at school that everyone knew could pound them into sand, who just kept to your self, you would never get into a fight.

If that same guy started picking on people and taking there lunch money, one day people will start picking fights with you.

We need to keep our power. Just get out of the rest of the worlds business.

And as for Obama's attempt to make the rest of the world love us.. I don't care if the world loves us. I just want my president to make sure they won't attack us.



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Oh hey I just realized you have a Ford quote in your sig. Well there you go, the bloke will have a Carrier and a whole Carrier class named after him.

Weigh in Mafoo, do you think that 11 carriers are (or will be in the next decade) needed to keep that power?



starcraft - Playing Games = FUN, Talking about Games = SERIOUS

The 11 carriers are needed to ensure that there is at least some power projection. Just because most carriers are in the hands of allies does not mean that we do not need them - carriers aren't for attacking other carriers, but projecting air power over potential warzones.

For example, lets say a theoretical war starts in SE Asia, and Australia gets attacked. Australia wants our help. How are we going to provide air power to Australia if it is behind enemy lines? That is what aircraft carriers are for - mobile floating fortresses that can project strikes onto enemies.

And its precisely for that reason I want our troops out - the whole idea on having so many people overseas in bases is for power projection. Why do we need power projection like that when we have 11 said carriers?

Essentially, I want to see America like this (militarily):

Reduce our presence in Europe by 90% or more
Reduce our presence in Asia by 50% - force Korea, Taiwan and Japan to care about their own military for once
Remove all troops from Latin America and Africa
Reduce our presence in the Mid East by 80% (sans Diego Garcia)

To compensate for that, field about half of our carrier fleet around the world in case of wars, with the other half at port, ready to move in the case of a war.






Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

Words Of Wisdom said:
Kenoid said:
Quite true, but if we disable all our nuclear weapons, will we be defenseless against the terrorists

How? 

If someone fires a nuclear warhead at the US, having 200,000 warheads of our own doesn't stop that one however advanced missile detection and anti-air interception capabilities would.  Nuclear weapons aren't tools for defense, they're tools for retaliation and deterrent.  Considering everyone is afraid to use nuclear weaponry these days, they're not exactly an effective deterrent against anything except other nations with nuclear weaponry (a group that doesn't include terrorists in the first place).

I am glad you responded to this horrible statement.  It is a sad time when half the people think like this guy that nuclear weapons help defend against terrorist.  It is pretty much on the same line as giving up your freedoms to remain free (Patriot Act).  Statements like this make me want to just say f the human race and go live on an island.  Too bad the world is full of stupid people.





trashleg said:
leo-j said:

the world is corrupt

tru dat.

on the whole, this world is f.d up pretty bad.

 

i hate the fact that nuclear bombs even exist, but as long as nobody goes making any more or actually using them, i think we'll be fine... fingers crossed, boys!

The sad thing is since they were created, more are going to be created and they will get deadlier and deadlier(just like every weapon mankind has ever made). I am sure within the next 3 generations someone will use one, let's hope I am wrong.



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