HappySqurriel said: Do you really want to know what a "Better Way" is? Realistically, we need to start considering what the likelihood that someone will re-offend is, how possible it is to rehabilitate them, and what the consequence of their re-offence will be and create an appropriate sentence for them; and we need to stop the dogmatic "One Size Fits All" approach of being easy or hard on criminals. There are criminals (like sexual predators) that will almost certainly re-offend, there is little chance of rehabilitation, and they commit some of the most heinous crimes; at the same time, there are criminals who the act of being caught has effectively eliminated their ability to re-offend, rehabilitation is highly likely, and even if they do re-offend the consequences are minimal so there is limited/no need for any significant sentence.

Ok. So, where's the better way?

If you treat people like animals, they become animals. (or worse)

KingFate said: NinjaguyDan said: Kasz216 said: n. WTF do you think will happen to them in the U.S. crimnal "justice" system?  Like I said, in the U.S., there is NO rehabilitation. There is a better way, start vid at 5:09 Actually, watch the whole damn thing.  OMG!!! European Sociliasim!!! like i said, there is a better way. That wouldn't work in many other places, the cultural differences are WAY to big. The more violent countries would be in a lot of trouble with that method.

People are people, it doesn't matter where they were born.

 

Kasz216 said: I think it's less cultural and more size based. It's eaiser to implement this stuff in smaller countries. If you'll notice all the model "left leaning" countries are very small. Countries like UK and France try to copy them, it tends to not work out and they have to come up with their own less efficient systems. For us it'd be problematic since the place they are put has to be like an island... also we'd need enough islands for our giant prison population when our island to landmass ratio is no doubt a lot smaller.

Deprivatizing the prison system would be a good start. Then reallocate 10% of the military budget to educational programs.

NinjaguyDan said: Kasz216 said: I think it's less cultural and more size based. It's eaiser to implement this stuff in smaller countries. If you'll notice all the model "left leaning" countries are very small. Countries like UK and France try to copy them, it tends to not work out and they have to come up with their own less efficient systems. For us it'd be problematic since the place they are put has to be like an island... also we'd need enough islands for our giant prison population when our island to landmass ratio is no doubt a lot smaller. Deprivatizing the prison system would be a good start. Then reallocate 10% of the military budget to educational programs.

You want to reallocate 10% of the military budget to educate criminals.  I'm assuming that 10% also is going to cover the cost of prison?  The problem being though... education spending in the US tends to not work... ironically because of how it's done with public schools.  Though really, nobody seems to do it well.  There is a reason why private schools get better results and pay less.

Also i'm not sure 68 billion a year would be enough to pay for the prisons being public and education of the prisoners.  I think California spends like... 48 billion just for their elementry schools... and they don't have to incarcerate them 24/7, put up firewalls, hire techno security staff to make sure the prisoners aren't abusing the internet, hacking, getting around the firewalls... etc.

Going the norway model each prisoner would need his own computer... we have what? 2.5 million prisoners in the US? That's $18,500 a piece... doesn't seem like enough money at all... for the added cyber security and increase in costs to the government.

Kasz216 said: NinjaguyDan said: Kasz216 said: I think it's less cultural and more size based. It's eaiser to implement this stuff in smaller countries. If you'll notice all the model "left leaning" countries are very small. Countries like UK and France try to copy them, it tends to not work out and they have to come up with their own less efficient systems. For us it'd be problematic since the place they are put has to be like an island... also we'd need enough islands for our giant prison population when our island to landmass ratio is no doubt a lot smaller. Deprivatizing the prison system would be a good start. Then reallocate 10% of the military budget to educational programs. You want to reallocate 10% of the military budget to educate criminals.  I'm assuming that 10% also is going to cover the cost of prison?  The problem being though... education spending in the US tends to not work... ironically because of how it's done with public schools.  Though really, nobody seems to do it well.  There is a reason why private schools get better results and pay less.

Education spending in the U.S. doesn't work because right-wingers usually control the purse strings (one way or another) and purposely fuck things up just so they can say "SEE, IT DOESN'T WORK!"

Get those fuckers out of the equation and I guarantee you it will work.

NinjaguyDan said: Kasz216 said: NinjaguyDan said: Kasz216 said: I think it's less cultural and more size based. It's eaiser to implement this stuff in smaller countries. If you'll notice all the model "left leaning" countries are very small. Countries like UK and France try to copy them, it tends to not work out and they have to come up with their own less efficient systems. For us it'd be problematic since the place they are put has to be like an island... also we'd need enough islands for our giant prison population when our island to landmass ratio is no doubt a lot smaller. Deprivatizing the prison system would be a good start. Then reallocate 10% of the military budget to educational programs. You want to reallocate 10% of the military budget to educate criminals.  I'm assuming that 10% also is going to cover the cost of prison?  The problem being though... education spending in the US tends to not work... ironically because of how it's done with public schools.  Though really, nobody seems to do it well.  There is a reason why private schools get better results and pay less. Education spending in the U.S. doesn't work because right-wingers usually control the purse strings (one way or another) and purposely fuck things up just so they can say "SEE, IT DOESN'T WORK!" Get those fuckers out of the equation and I guarantee you it will work.

Sure.. that's why even in states that democrats are in complete control it doesn't work. I'm trying to have an actual conversation here, not a blind idealouge war... if your not up for that, please let me know so i'm not wasting my time. Another issue that comes up is due to the extra 18,500 spent per inmate that likely wouldn't be enough to cover the educational needs... this brings the amount we spend per inmate to 38,500 a year. Median Per capita income is 46,000. Considering the expenses are actually likely to be higher then 18,500 per prisoner we may end up spending more on each prisoner then the average man makes.

Education reform doesn't need more money. It needs merit based funding and the ability to make sure that we keep good teachers, and can fire bad teachers. As it is now, bad teachers get paid more to go to the "undesirable" schools... while those who want to teach usually get lured to the nicer areas and the private schools. They make less money but are enticed by the better infrastructure and the knowledge that the other teachers are good meaning that they will be able to teach people because there aren't lazy teachers in first and second grade not teaching the skills needed yet still passing people on to third grade.

Kasz216 said: NinjaguyDan said: Kasz216 said: NinjaguyDan said: Kasz216 said: I think it's less cultural and more size based. It's eaiser to implement this stuff in smaller countries. If you'll notice all the model "left leaning" countries are very small. Countries like UK and France try to copy them, it tends to not work out and they have to come up with their own less efficient systems. For us it'd be problematic since the place they are put has to be like an island... also we'd need enough islands for our giant prison population when our island to landmass ratio is no doubt a lot smaller. Deprivatizing the prison system would be a good start. Then reallocate 10% of the military budget to educational programs. You want to reallocate 10% of the military budget to educate criminals.  I'm assuming that 10% also is going to cover the cost of prison?  The problem being though... education spending in the US tends to not work... ironically because of how it's done with public schools.  Though really, nobody seems to do it well.  There is a reason why private schools get better results and pay less. Education spending in the U.S. doesn't work because right-wingers usually control the purse strings (one way or another) and purposely fuck things up just so they can say "SEE, IT DOESN'T WORK!" Get those fuckers out of the equation and I guarantee you it will work. Sure.. that's why even in states that democrats are in control of it doesn't work. I'm trying to have an actual conversation here, not a blind idealouge war... if your not up for that, please let me know so i'm not wasting my time. Another issue that comes up is due to the extra 18,500 spent per inmate that likely wouldn't be enough to cover the educational needs... this brings the amount we spend per inmate to 38,500 a year. Median Per capita income is 46,000. Considering the expenses are actually likely to be higher then 18,500 per prisoner we may end up spending more on each prisoner then the average man makes.

5% of the world's population, 25% of the world's prison population...

In the "land of the free" how can that be possible?  Because the U.S. is enthralled by a fucked-up right-wing authoritarian ideology.

Kasz216 said:  Either way it all depends on whether you think the main purpose of prison is to punish or to rehibilitate.

Good point. There is a big difference.

 

I'd consider prison a punishment rather than rehabilitation.

Rehab is for addicts/junkies; you can get someone off drugs but you can't turn a killer into a saint (in my opinion).

 

I think 10 years in a dark room by himself with nothing but bread and water will more likely stop someone from ever killing again than teaching them skills and trying to make them a better person ever will.

What I mean is if I had to spend 10 years in solitary confinement then I would be afraid to ever commit another crime in fear I'd have to go through that again...on the other hand getting guitar lessons and interacting others will make prison a somewhat bearable experience and people won't be as afraid to go back since they know prison isn't that terrible. Do you get what i mean?

Chairman-Mao said: Kasz216 said:  Either way it all depends on whether you think the main purpose of prison is to punish or to rehibilitate. Good point. There is a big difference.   I'd consider prison a punishment rather than rehabilitation. Rehab is for addicts/junkies; you can get someone off drugs but you can't turn a killer into a saint (in my opinion).   I think 10 years in a dark room by himself with nothing but bread and water will more likely stop someone from ever killing again than teaching them skills and trying to make them a better person ever will. What I mean is if I had to spend 10 years in solitary confinement then I would be afraid to ever commit another crime in fear I'd have to go through that again...on the other hand getting guitar lessons and interacting others will make prison a somewhat bearable experience and people won't be as afraid to go back since they know prison isn't that terrible. Do you get what i mean?

That proves my first and last points. (and those in between)