There are three potential purposes of a penal system; to rehabilitate criminals,to act as a deterrent and to protect others. A well designed system can satisfy all three of these purposes at the same time but it requires a well understood set of priorities; and these priorities should be followed consistently. In my opinion the priorities should be to protect others first, to rehabilitate criminals second, and to act as a deterrent third.

With that said, as long as the individual poses no risk to guards or other inmates (meeting the first purpose of a prison system) I would allow them to have quite a few privileges; as long as these are not considered rights. The reason for this is simple, if you take away everything from someone then you have nothing left to be able to control their behaviour; and without this leverage it will be difficult to enforce rules in a highly disciplined environment like a prison.

 

 

NinjaguyDan said: This is the kind of subject that exposes the authoritarian mindset. Authoritarian: "Punish them"; "They deserve to suffer"; "Let 'em rot"... You treat someone like an animal, they become an animal. (or worse) Criminals are broken people, you can't fix them by slamming them into the ground.

It is a tough line to tread though.


For example, a woman who kills her husband for being abusive.  Is she ever going to kill again?  Not unless she gets another abusive husband.

So... should she got to jail?  Is she really "broken" in a way that should keep her out of society outside of needing some counsling sessions for PTSD?

The only reasons to put her in jail would be punishment and to prevent other abused women from killing their husbands right?


Mother kills a woman because that woman killed her son.  Is she ever going to kill again?  Not unless she has another son or daughter murdered.  So... should she go to jail?

One Woman kills another because that woman killed her daughter.... 

One man kills a woman because that woman killed her mother. 

 

As I'm sure you've guessed.  This is all two familys... it's a chain.  Prison IS to punish as well as rehibilitate.  It's a matter to draw a line of which crimes deserve to be punishment heavy, and which deserve to be rehibilitation heavy.

Kasz216 said: NinjaguyDan said: This is the kind of subject that exposes the authoritarian mindset. Authoritarian: "Punish them"; "They deserve to suffer"; "Let 'em rot"... You treat someone like an animal, they become an animal. (or worse) Criminals are broken people, you can't fix them by slamming them into the ground. It is a tough line to tread though. For example, a woman who kills her husband for being abusive.  Is she ever going to kill again?  Not unless she gets another abusive husband. So... should she got to jail?  Is she really "broken" in a way that should keep her out of society outside of needing some counsling sessions for PTSD? The only reasons to put her in jail would be punishment and to prevent other abused women from killing their husbands right? Mother kills a woman because that woman killed her son.  Is she ever going to kill again?  Not unless she has another son or daughter murdered.  So... should she go to jail? One Woman kills another because that woman killed her daughter....  One man kills a woman because that woman killed her mother.    As I'm sure you've guessed.  This is all two familys... it's a chain.  Prison IS to punish as well as rehibilitate.  It's a matter to draw a line of which crimes deserve to be punishment heavy, and which deserve to be rehibilitation heavy.

Prison is just a warehouse of broken people. How would you feel if you took your car to a mechanic then get it back five years later in worse condition while having to pay $50,000 a year for it?

In the U.S. there is NO rehabilitation, that would cost too much and cut into the profits of the thriving private prison industry.  The very same private prison industry that spent MILLIONS lobbying to increase the sentences of minor drug offenders.  Also, the same private prison industry that WILL SPEND MILLIONS trying to defeat the only rational solution (legalization) to the drug problem.

NinjaguyDan said: Kasz216 said: NinjaguyDan said: This is the kind of subject that exposes the authoritarian mindset. Authoritarian: "Punish them"; "They deserve to suffer"; "Let 'em rot"... You treat someone like an animal, they become an animal. (or worse) Criminals are broken people, you can't fix them by slamming them into the ground. It is a tough line to tread though. For example, a woman who kills her husband for being abusive.  Is she ever going to kill again?  Not unless she gets another abusive husband. So... should she got to jail?  Is she really "broken" in a way that should keep her out of society outside of needing some counsling sessions for PTSD? The only reasons to put her in jail would be punishment and to prevent other abused women from killing their husbands right? Mother kills a woman because that woman killed her son.  Is she ever going to kill again?  Not unless she has another son or daughter murdered.  So... should she go to jail? One Woman kills another because that woman killed her daughter....  One man kills a woman because that woman killed her mother.    As I'm sure you've guessed.  This is all two familys... it's a chain.  Prison IS to punish as well as rehibilitate.  It's a matter to draw a line of which crimes deserve to be punishment heavy, and which deserve to be rehibilitation heavy. Prison is just a warehouse of broken people. How would you feel if you took your car to a mechanic then get it back five years later in worse condition while having to pay $50,000 a year for it? In the U.S. there is NO rehabilitation, that would cost too much and cut into the profits of the thriving private prison industry.  The very same private prison industry that spent MILLIONS lobbying to increase the sentences of minor drug offenders.  Also, the same private prison industry that WILL SPEND MILLIONS trying to defeat the only rational solution (legalization) to the drug problem.

Thank you for completly ignoring the actual questions preventend and going off on a strawman tangent.

Those people listed above aren't broken.  They are valuable members of society that committed murder once, do to very understandable circumstances and putting them in priosn actually makes them LESS valuable to society.  Even with the perfect prison system.

Does this mean they shouldn't go to jail?  Jail clearly isn't JUST a warehouse of broken people or meant soley for rehibilitation.

Kasz216 said: NinjaguyDan said: Kasz216 said: NinjaguyDan said: This is the kind of subject that exposes the authoritarian mindset. Authoritarian: "Punish them"; "They deserve to suffer"; "Let 'em rot"... You treat someone like an animal, they become an animal. (or worse) Criminals are broken people, you can't fix them by slamming them into the ground. It is a tough line to tread though. For example, a woman who kills her husband for being abusive.  Is she ever going to kill again?  Not unless she gets another abusive husband. So... should she got to jail?  Is she really "broken" in a way that should keep her out of society outside of needing some counsling sessions for PTSD? The only reasons to put her in jail would be punishment and to prevent other abused women from killing their husbands right? Mother kills a woman because that woman killed her son.  Is she ever going to kill again?  Not unless she has another son or daughter murdered.  So... should she go to jail? One Woman kills another because that woman killed her daughter....  One man kills a woman because that woman killed her mother.    As I'm sure you've guessed.  This is all two familys... it's a chain.  Prison IS to punish as well as rehibilitate.  It's a matter to draw a line of which crimes deserve to be punishment heavy, and which deserve to be rehibilitation heavy. Prison is just a warehouse of broken people. How would you feel if you took your car to a mechanic then get it back five years later in worse condition while having to pay $50,000 a year for it? In the U.S. there is NO rehabilitation, that would cost too much and cut into the profits of the thriving private prison industry.  The very same private prison industry that spent MILLIONS lobbying to increase the sentences of minor drug offenders.  Also, the same private prison industry that WILL SPEND MILLIONS trying to defeat the only rational solution (legalization) to the drug problem. Thank you for completly ignoring the actual questions preventend and going off on a strawman tangent. Those people listed above aren't broken.  They are valuable members of society that committed murder once, do to very understandable circumstances and putting them in priosn actually makes them LESS valuable to society.  Even with the perfect prison system. Does this mean they shouldn't go to jail?  Jail clearly isn't JUST a warehouse of broken people or meant soley for rehibilitation.

WTF do you think will happen to them in the U.S. crimnal "justice" system?  Like I said, in the U.S., there is NO rehabilitation.

There is a better way, start vid at 5:09

Actually, watch the whole damn thing.  OMG!!! European Sociliasim!!!

like i said, there is a better way.

I don't understand why it's titled "this country beats france." I mean... France's prison system is worse then the USAs.

Though yeah i've seen that video before. What it DOESN'T tell you is that prison isn't actually how they all are run.

In fact the rest of norways prisons are just like ours. That prison is just a "halfway" house. If your lucky... when your sentence is about to come up, they send you there for a year or two so it's easier for you to intergrate into society.

Would it be good for us to have halfway houses like this?  Sure... if we have plenty of islands to do it... and don't mind moving prisoners across tons of states rather then the state obligation it is now.  No islands in Montana afterall.

 

Like I said... it's a combination of punishment and rehibilitation. These people are "wharehoused" for the majority of their time in norway. Of course you didn't know any of this because well... Michael Moore is the king of lies of omission. They do focus a bit more on rehibilitation they give everyone strictly monitorerd computere for example... but most of their prisons are just that... prisons. If michael moore posted on this website he'd be one of those guys that points to Avish Tsvangi's 800 million wiis sold (or whatever it was) and claim that's what every Wii owner expects it to sell, that the PS3 is doomed because of it's low first year sales and that the 360 sucks because that Nazi SRPG game by Atlus "bombed." Except he gets paid to troll.

NinjaguyDan said: Kasz216 said: n. WTF do you think will happen to them in the U.S. crimnal "justice" system?  Like I said, in the U.S., there is NO rehabilitation. There is a better way, start vid at 5:09 Actually, watch the whole damn thing.  OMG!!! European Sociliasim!!! like i said, there is a better way.

That wouldn't work in many other places, the cultural differences are WAY to big. The more violent countries would be in a lot of trouble with that method.

I think it's less cultural and more size based. It's eaiser to implement this stuff in smaller countries.

If you'll notice all the model "left leaning" countries are very small. Countries like UK and France try to copy them, it tends to not work out and they have to come up with their own less efficient systems.

For us it'd be problematic since the place they are put has to be like an island... also we'd need enough islands for our giant prison population when our island to landmass ratio is no doubt a lot smaller.

Do you really want to know what a "Better Way" is?

Realistically, we need to start considering what the likelihood that someone will re-offend is, how possible it is to rehabilitate them, and what the consequence of their re-offence will be and create an appropriate sentence for them; and we need to stop the dogmatic "One Size Fits All" approach of being easy or hard on criminals. There are criminals (like sexual predators) that will almost certainly re-offend, there is little chance of rehabilitation, and they commit some of the most heinous crimes; at the same time, there are criminals who the act of being caught has effectively eliminated their ability to re-offend, rehabilitation is highly likely, and even if they do re-offend the consequences are minimal so there is limited/no need for any significant sentence.

People that teach intruments can actually make quite a lot of money. I've got a couple of mates that do it and you'd be surprised how much you can make from it.

Plus being a bad dude from gaol would get all the chicks to buy your record.