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Forums - Sony - Sony's Removal of "Other OS" May Be Against EU Law

 

Sony's Removal of "Other OS" May Be Against EU Law

Bad Sony, bad! 131 69.31%
 
I still hope it's an early April's Fools 58 30.69%
 
Total:189

this does smell like class action....

imagine the guy who bought a 600€ PS3 instead of an Xbox + cheap PC just because of this featuer... there needs to be only one for him to have a case against sony.

Imagine if sony removed the play blu ray movies feature....and yes it is exactly the same thing, the only difference is the amount of people using it.



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joshin69 said:
Damnyouall
You know the terms and conditions page you accept when you first update?
Ask you a question, do you own a PS3? Me thinks you do not. If this is the case, what the hell are you going on about!

that's why MS paid 2 billion euros of penalties to the EU... because terms and conditions protected them very well...

 

heck to do something closer to the MS case with IE, you could have a Linux association sue Sony for forcing their own OS on the PS3 and blocking the Linux installs (which they can't say is not possible).



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binary solo said:
joshin69 said:
Damnyouall
You know the terms and conditions page you accept when you first update?
Ask you a question, do you own a PS3? Me thinks you do not. If this is the case, what the hell are you going on about!

There is a legal principle that goes something like: you can't contract out of the law. That means it doesn't matter what you put in your terms and conditions or EULA, you can't force someone to accept your unlawful actions by making them sign a document saying they will let you do it.

If indeed there is a law that says you cannot force removal of functionality from a device which was openly advertised as an intended capability of the device then you can't use a ToC or EULA to allow you to contravene that law. Sony can put it in their EULA/ToC and brush people off by saying "look you agreed to this in the ToC / EULA, so we can do what we want", but it doesn't mean such clauses will stand up to competent legal challenge. I was being facetious in my previous post (and I still think overall it's an obscure little known law, otherwise Sony wouldn't be trying it on) but I do think it's likely that a well organised and funded legal challenge to this would probably see any clauses in EULAs opr ToCs rendered null and void, which would have some quite serious implications well beyond what Sony might want to do in future with PS3 FW updates if it became a legal precedent in the EU.

In any case these things are not true contracts because there is no oportunity to negotiate conditions or variations. Before you even get to see the EULA/ToC you have to buy the device most of the time, which means you have committed youself to signing something before you've even had a chance to look at what you're committing yourself to. You are basically forced to accept the conditions more or less under a state of duress, because if you don't hit the little "accept" button then if your system doesn't become an expensive paperweight right then it soon will.

There's probably only 1 watertight clause in most EULAs / ToCs and that is a clause saying that you agree not to use the device / software for illegal activities, and the manufacturer is indemnified from any illegal activities you do commit using the device you have purchased.

I don't have a problem with Sony releasing 3.21 for myself and 90% or more of phat users wouldn't have a problem either. But for those people who do use (or want to use) OtherOS on their phat they should be able to do so without having some of the other essential functions of their PS3s cease to function.

You see that's where Sony overstepped the mark. It isn't in the removing of the OtherOS functionality, its in the removing of other functionality if you don't remove OtherOS functionality. They've presented OtherOS users with an unacceptable ultimatum: either use your PS3 as a Linux computer and media centre, or use it as a gaming machine and media centre, but you cannot use it as a Linux computer and gaming machine.

What Sony should have done is give an optional added benefit to accepting 3.21 to incentivise uptake. Perhaps a 1 month 15% discount on PSN titles, or some other basically no cost little treat that most people with think "hey nice, and all I have to do is disable a function I never use". Then the OtherOS users have the choice of keeping Linux and missing out on some wee bonus offer that no one can claim any legal right to or ditching Linux for some little e-trinket that amounts to not very much. If you take the e-trinket then you weren't much of a committed OtherOS user at the end of the day. But no, they had to take the punative line, threatening people with loss of functionality of they don't take up this "optional" FW update, that was guaranteed to get some people's backs up.

Consumer choice in the totalitarian dictator style, always works a treat.

Great post, thank you. I had a feeling your previous one might be a joke; sometimes it's hard to tell on the internet.



"Well certainly with the Xbox 360, we had some challenges at the launch. Once we identified that we took control of it. We wanted to do it right by our customers. Our customers are very important to us." -Larry "Major Nelson" Hryb (10/2013). Note: RRoD was fixed with the Jasper-revision 3 years after the launch of 360

"People don't pay attention to a lot of the details."-Yusuf Mehdi explaining why Xbone DRM scheme would succeed

"Fortunately we have a product for people who aren't able to get some form of connectivity; it's called Xbox 360,”-Don Mattrick

"The region locking of the 3DS wasn't done for profits on games"-MDMAlliance

I still believe Sony is within their legal rights to remove this feature. But lets say they arent, I am sure they weighed the options of what it would cost them in a calss action lawsuit vs lost money in piracy that would come from leaving tis feature on the PS3.

But like I said I still believe they are well within their legal right, whether that makes them a bad company is a different discussion altogether.



gamelover2000 said:
Damnyou.. we know what bias your posts mostly are..

Sony has full right to remove this feature as it says so in the manual.. they have full right over adding/removing the non-100% needed features..

One-sided clauses are almost always invalidated by EU tribunals. Sony could force users to apply patches for security holes on features if they want to access its network, that's perfectly fine, but forcing them to remove a feature the item was sold with and that was advertised is totally different and illegal.

The only legal remedy is patching the hole, not removing the feature.

If Sony decided to remove the ability to play BD movies or even game, would it be legal? They are features just like OtherOS, more used than it, but legally they aren't different, the original PS3 models were sold advertised as having them all.



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Option 3 for your poll should be "I don't give a shit about the removal of other OS"



Heh, no. The third option was to stay out of the thread.



"Well certainly with the Xbox 360, we had some challenges at the launch. Once we identified that we took control of it. We wanted to do it right by our customers. Our customers are very important to us." -Larry "Major Nelson" Hryb (10/2013). Note: RRoD was fixed with the Jasper-revision 3 years after the launch of 360

"People don't pay attention to a lot of the details."-Yusuf Mehdi explaining why Xbone DRM scheme would succeed

"Fortunately we have a product for people who aren't able to get some form of connectivity; it's called Xbox 360,”-Don Mattrick

"The region locking of the 3DS wasn't done for profits on games"-MDMAlliance

Well at the very least it should have been "I dont think that Sony broke any laws" because that is a possibility



Damnyouall said:

Look what I just found:

EU Directive 1999/44/EC

Article 2

Conformity with the contract

1. The seller must deliver goods to the consumer which are in conformity with the contract of sale.

2. Consumer goods are presumed to be in conformity with the contract if they:

( a ) comply with the description given by the seller and possess the qualities of the goods which the seller has held out to the consumer as a sample or model;

( b ) are fit for any particular purpose for which the consumer requires them and which he made known to the seller at the time of conclusion of the contract and which the seller has accepted;

( c ) are fit for the purposes for which goods of the same type are normally used;

( d ) show the quality and performance which are normal in goods of the same type and which the consumer can reasonably expect, given the nature of the goods and taking into account any public statements on the specific characteristics of the goods made about them by the seller, the producer or his representative, particularly in advertising or on labelling.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/smartapi/cgi/sga_doc?smartapi!celexapi!prod!CELEXnumdoc&lg=en&numdoc=31999L0044&model=guichett

There isn't a clause that states that the seller cannot modify the system specifications post marketing though, which in lies the problem. Basically what I'm reading is, as long as Sony markets based on the specs they put forth then they are within EU law. However the slim line does not include the other OS option so I am wondering if this creates a loophole giving them the right to remove the feature based on the change in contract to conform with its current product line.

I might be off base, but that's one way to look at the laws presented here.



-- Nothing is nicer than seeing your PS3 on an HDTV through an HDMI cable for the first time.

Frankly, I don't really care for that feature, but I hope Sony will be given a hard time due to these laws. Even TVs have updatable firmware these days, I just don't want locking out features the device was sold with to become the norm.