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Forums - General - Conservative Kristallnacht

rocketpig said:
Rath said:
Manus is right about overthrowing a democratic government. The government in power is the government elected by the people. Why? Because you're overthrowing a majority government for a minority ideal - otherwise you'd be able to vote in the government that you want.

Essentially you would become the tyrants ruling the majority which I'm fairly sure isn't what the writers of your constitution had in mind - I think they were more concerned with overthrowing tyrants.

That is not entirely true. There are plenty of examples of a majority-ruled government oppressing the minority so severely that drastic measures must be taken, the extreme form being a coup. You don't even have to look far to see examples of it (eg. slavery in the US).

There are plenty of reasons to overthrow a Democracy, just less reasons than most other forms of government.

Thank you.

Just because you have a majority-elected, Democratic government does not mean that its not succeptible to corruption and tyrany.

Think about it this way: If Bush would have repealed the laws for a 3rd term in office, and won, somehow, do you think that would have been majority rule? Democratic instituions are still made of humans, therefore corruptible. We just passed a sweeping healthcare bill that was opposed by the majority of Americans (and I can provide many polls that show this), and ratified by many members of congress that were paid off for their votes (not just the Louisiana Purchase, or the Cornhusker deal, but we're now learning that Stupak and the pro-lifers were bought off with nearly $4b USD of earmarks). Was that democracy in action?

Admittedly, I don't think such actions are deserving of death, or the overthrow of government, but the question begs to be asked: How far is too far? After all, Hugo Chavez was elected in a democratic election, and Venezuala is still a democracy, but you cannot convince me that the people are the ones in control of the government.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

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@mrstickball. Hugo Chavez has taken control of the media, the united states government has never done that. As soon as you take the media as a propaganda mouthpiece you can not have free and fair elections.

If Bush had removed the law for a third term and won then yes it would be democracy. I don't think he'd be able to win if he removed that law though.



Ah, but what if Bush rigged the elections ala Chavez?

And for reference, a federal bailout of newspapers is under consideration by the Obama administration, so that scenario is not far away.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

Give me a break. The thing is we protest in America and then go have a bbq or something. We don't break into buildings or burn cars like you Euros. Freedom from the govt not govt freedom is a tradition here for 250+ years and is a political past time.

What about the lib Kristallnacht against Whip Cantor done by an Obamite and donor I might add? http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/29/AR2010032903815.html But I guess that is just too far-fetched to believe.

Remember in November.



rocketpig said:
Rath said:
Manus is right about overthrowing a democratic government. The government in power is the government elected by the people. Why? Because you're overthrowing a majority government for a minority ideal - otherwise you'd be able to vote in the government that you want.

Essentially you would become the tyrants ruling the majority which I'm fairly sure isn't what the writers of your constitution had in mind - I think they were more concerned with overthrowing tyrants.

That is not entirely true. There are plenty of examples of a majority-ruled government oppressing the minority so severely that drastic measures must be taken, the extreme form being a coup. You don't even have to look far to see examples of it (eg. slavery in the US).

There are plenty of reasons to overthrow a Democracy, just less reasons than most other forms of government.

Modern democracies allow political representation for almost all individuals and only deny reperesentation for justifiable reasons.  In the USA, age limit and felony record are taken into consideration for allowing people to vote, and even felony record is in dispute in the US.

Slavery is not an example of a of democracy as part of the population is unjustifiablely removed from the voting process.  For example, the Confederate states of America was just as democratic as the Soviet Union, the CSA only allowing white males to vote and the Soviet Union only allowing communist party members to vote, thus an overthrow of these government types by the majority is justifiable.



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mrstickball said:
Ah, but what if Bush rigged the elections ala Chavez?

And for reference, a federal bailout of newspapers is under consideration by the Obama administration, so that scenario is not far away.

Then it would be illegal.

If there were not solid safeguards in the bailout against government interference in those papers then you would have a right to protest, it's a breach of freedom of the press. In fact I'd thoroughly encourage protesting it. However at the moment it's entirely unfounded speculation.



Rath said:
rocketpig said:
Rath said:
Manus is right about overthrowing a democratic government. The government in power is the government elected by the people. Why? Because you're overthrowing a majority government for a minority ideal - otherwise you'd be able to vote in the government that you want.

Essentially you would become the tyrants ruling the majority which I'm fairly sure isn't what the writers of your constitution had in mind - I think they were more concerned with overthrowing tyrants.

That is not entirely true. There are plenty of examples of a majority-ruled government oppressing the minority so severely that drastic measures must be taken, the extreme form being a coup. You don't even have to look far to see examples of it (eg. slavery in the US).

There are plenty of reasons to overthrow a Democracy, just less reasons than most other forms of government.

However due to your civil rights (which interestingly weren't all originally in the constitution) tyranny by majority is nearly impossible.

Tell that to homosexuals. It's not impossible at all. I'm not advocating an overthrow of the US government, I'm only arguing that there can be reasons to overthrow a democracy.

Manus made the argument that there is never a reason to overthrow a democracy. I listed a reason why he was wrong. The US government and its civil rights laws really have nothing to do with it.




Or check out my new webcomic: http://selfcentent.com/

Funny that the first arrest in this wave manus is complaining about hitting only democrats was a person that threated a republican.



rocketpig said:
Rath said:
rocketpig said:
Rath said:
Manus is right about overthrowing a democratic government. The government in power is the government elected by the people. Why? Because you're overthrowing a majority government for a minority ideal - otherwise you'd be able to vote in the government that you want.

Essentially you would become the tyrants ruling the majority which I'm fairly sure isn't what the writers of your constitution had in mind - I think they were more concerned with overthrowing tyrants.

That is not entirely true. There are plenty of examples of a majority-ruled government oppressing the minority so severely that drastic measures must be taken, the extreme form being a coup. You don't even have to look far to see examples of it (eg. slavery in the US).

There are plenty of reasons to overthrow a Democracy, just less reasons than most other forms of government.

However due to your civil rights (which interestingly weren't all originally in the constitution) tyranny by majority is nearly impossible.

Tell that to homosexuals. It's not impossible at all. I'm not advocating an overthrow of the US government, I'm only arguing that there can be reasons to overthrow a democracy.

Manus made the argument that there is never a reason to overthrow a democracy. I listed a reason why he was wrong. The US government and its civil rights laws really have nothing to do with it.


Yeah, it's funny in most states it's actually perfectly legal to fire someone because they're gay. They can sue you, ask you why you fired them in open court. You can say "They're gay" case dismissed.

Miguel_Zorro said:
ManusJustus said:
damkira said:
@mrstickball

I think you missed my point...

'Missed' is an understatement.


LOL.  True, true.  Missed by a country mile, he did.  It's funny though, Sharky almost sounds proud of himself for getting the point of the post, the way he's pointing out the obvious. :)

Anyways, Godwin's law states that if you compare something to the Nazis, the thread is over, and you lose.  It's not often that somebody does it to start off a discussion though.  The language in the OP is clear flame bait.

That's actually not what Godwin's law states, it just states that any arguement on the internet, if given enough time will eventually lead to one side comparing the other to nazis.

It doesn't actually judge validity off it though often times people see the person who pulls out the nazi card first loses because they ran out of arguements.