What do you mean? "Spartan" Greek sounded different then "Athens" Greek as well. They all had their different dialects.

And Macedonians were considered Greeks, barely, but Greeks.

What I'm trying to say is that being descendant of Heracles is a totally different thing then claiming to be son of a god ergo being one yourself. Claiming to be descendant of Heracles didn't make you a god or anything.
Claiming what Alexander the Great claimed was unheard of in the Greek city-states. I don't see how theocracy has anything to do with the city-states having wars with each other.

TheRealMafoo said: Zucas said: TheRealMafoo said: Zucas said: Wooh you need to check your cultural history on New Orleans, or mainly french cajun Louisiana.  There is quite a difference between them and well every other southerner then and now.  "Some slaveholders were black or had some black ancestry. In 1830 there were 3,775 such slaveholders in the South, with 80% of them located in Louisiana, South Carolina, Virginia, and Maryland. There were economic differences between free blacks of the Upper South and Deep South, with the latter fewer in number, but wealthier and typically of mixed race. Half of the black slaveholders lived in cities rather than the countryside, with most in New Orleans and Charleston." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States#Free_black_people_and_slavery That was 1830. The war was 30 years later, so more free black men had slaves at the time of the war. Well you are only proving what I said in the quote.  Seriously look up the history on New Orleans, or mainly french cajun Louisiana.  It isn't like the rest of the south during that time.  Still really isn't.  Main difference being its southern European roots and roots in Catholicism which is unlike the rest of the south.  And none of this really has any relevance to the inital points.  Whehter or not there were a few select cases of blacks having freedom, you can't turn that mound of dirt into a mountain.  What I can't do, is convince you that it wasn't all about slavery. And I never said the south was all like New Orleans, I just stated there were many free black men in New Orleans that owned slaves.

Well, no, you can't convince me that racism wasn't the underlying reason because that would simply be false.  Slavery was the main issue scattered with other ideas such as states' rights (more for the upper class) but at the heart of all it was racism.  All I'm really trying to say, is I see a lot of people trying to defend the Confederates or play the entire thing off as just an overarching government taking away freedoms.  I'm trying to stop people from thinking that way about the American Civil War simply because its not true.  Some of that existed, but the whole underlying reason that pushed everyone in the south over the edge was racism.  Don't martyr them, as there is nothing about their intentions that were noble or had justice in mind.

 

Well my point wasn't about that with New Orleans, I'm just telling you to understand why it was that in New Orleans.  Obivously your not from my state and don't know the culture, but there is a reason why New Orleans is different which is why I said for you to look it up.  I couldn't expect you to know it which is why I suggested just seeing why New Orleans was different and why it can't be used as the case for the rest. 

Zucas said: TheRealMafoo said: Zucas said: TheRealMafoo said: Zucas said: Wooh you need to check your cultural history on New Orleans, or mainly french cajun Louisiana.  There is quite a difference between them and well every other southerner then and now.  "Some slaveholders were black or had some black ancestry. In 1830 there were 3,775 such slaveholders in the South, with 80% of them located in Louisiana, South Carolina, Virginia, and Maryland. There were economic differences between free blacks of the Upper South and Deep South, with the latter fewer in number, but wealthier and typically of mixed race. Half of the black slaveholders lived in cities rather than the countryside, with most in New Orleans and Charleston." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States#Free_black_people_and_slavery That was 1830. The war was 30 years later, so more free black men had slaves at the time of the war. Well you are only proving what I said in the quote.  Seriously look up the history on New Orleans, or mainly french cajun Louisiana.  It isn't like the rest of the south during that time.  Still really isn't.  Main difference being its southern European roots and roots in Catholicism which is unlike the rest of the south.  And none of this really has any relevance to the inital points.  Whehter or not there were a few select cases of blacks having freedom, you can't turn that mound of dirt into a mountain.  What I can't do, is convince you that it wasn't all about slavery. And I never said the south was all like New Orleans, I just stated there were many free black men in New Orleans that owned slaves.   Well, no, you can't convince me that racism wasn't the underlying reason because that would simply be false.  Slavery was the main issue scattered with other ideas such as states' rights (more for the upper class) but at the heart of all it was racism.  All I'm really trying to say, is I see a lot of people trying to defend the Confederates or play the entire thing off as just an overarching government taking away freedoms.  I'm trying to stop people from thinking that way about the American Civil War simply because its not true.  Some of that existed, but the whole underlying reason that pushed everyone in the south over the edge was racism.  Don't martyr them, as there is nothing about their intentions that were noble or had justice in mind.   Well my point wasn't about that with New Orleans, I'm just telling you to understand why it was that in New Orleans.  Obivously your not from my state and don't know the culture, but there is a reason why New Orleans is different which is why I said for you to look it up.  I couldn't expect you to know it which is why I suggested just seeing why New Orleans was different and why it can't be used as the case for the rest.

Why were there thousands of black men fighting for the south, if it was all about racism?

btw, I graduated from Bossier City High School ;) 

TheRealMafoo said: Zucas said: TheRealMafoo said: Zucas said: TheRealMafoo said: Zucas said: Wooh you need to check your cultural history on New Orleans, or mainly french cajun Louisiana.  There is quite a difference between them and well every other southerner then and now.  "Some slaveholders were black or had some black ancestry. In 1830 there were 3,775 such slaveholders in the South, with 80% of them located in Louisiana, South Carolina, Virginia, and Maryland. There were economic differences between free blacks of the Upper South and Deep South, with the latter fewer in number, but wealthier and typically of mixed race. Half of the black slaveholders lived in cities rather than the countryside, with most in New Orleans and Charleston." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States#Free_black_people_and_slavery That was 1830. The war was 30 years later, so more free black men had slaves at the time of the war. Well you are only proving what I said in the quote.  Seriously look up the history on New Orleans, or mainly french cajun Louisiana.  It isn't like the rest of the south during that time.  Still really isn't.  Main difference being its southern European roots and roots in Catholicism which is unlike the rest of the south.  And none of this really has any relevance to the inital points.  Whehter or not there were a few select cases of blacks having freedom, you can't turn that mound of dirt into a mountain.  What I can't do, is convince you that it wasn't all about slavery. And I never said the south was all like New Orleans, I just stated there were many free black men in New Orleans that owned slaves.   Well, no, you can't convince me that racism wasn't the underlying reason because that would simply be false.  Slavery was the main issue scattered with other ideas such as states' rights (more for the upper class) but at the heart of all it was racism.  All I'm really trying to say, is I see a lot of people trying to defend the Confederates or play the entire thing off as just an overarching government taking away freedoms.  I'm trying to stop people from thinking that way about the American Civil War simply because its not true.  Some of that existed, but the whole underlying reason that pushed everyone in the south over the edge was racism.  Don't martyr them, as there is nothing about their intentions that were noble or had justice in mind.   Well my point wasn't about that with New Orleans, I'm just telling you to understand why it was that in New Orleans.  Obivously your not from my state and don't know the culture, but there is a reason why New Orleans is different which is why I said for you to look it up.  I couldn't expect you to know it which is why I suggested just seeing why New Orleans was different and why it can't be used as the case for the rest.  Why were there thousands of black men fighting for the south, if it was all about racism? btw, I graduated from Bossier City High School ;)

Dude, racism was a huge part of it. White males wanted to be superior and aspire to owning slaves.

The Confederacy even made a decree that any black man captured and found to be wearing Union army attire would be executed.

The whole succession due to Lincoln's victory was the paranoia that Lincoln would end slavery. The very fact the KKK began and southern whites went to such extremes to keep the oppression and fear on blacks thereafter prove as much.

PhoenixKing said: TheRealMafoo said: Why were there thousands of black men fighting for the south, if it was all about racism? btw, I graduated from Bossier City High School ;)  Dude, racism was a huge part of it. White males wanted to be superior and aspire to owning slaves. The Confederacy even made a decree that any black man captured and found to be wearing Union army attire would be executed. The whole succession due to Lincoln's victory was the paranoia that Lincoln would end slavery. The very fact the KKK began and southern whites went to such extremes to keep the oppression and fear on blacks thereafter prove as much.

The reason the south made that decree, is the north said if any slave escape's, and fights for the north, that they would win there freedom. Well, all slaves other then the ones in the border states. The north did not decree those slaves free men, because they were worried those states would fight for the south.

Look, racism was a huge problem, but it was just as bad a problem in the north then the south. In fact, in many places in the north racism was worse then the south. If white men were slaves, they would have cared just as much about the federal government telling them they could not own them.

it was about states having the right to make that choice, and not the federal government coming in and telling them what to do.

I am not a white man by the way, I am middle eastern, just so you know I am not saying this because of some white pride bullshit. 

PhoenixKing said: TheRealMafoo said: Zucas said: TheRealMafoo said: Zucas said: TheRealMafoo said: Zucas said: Wooh you need to check your cultural history on New Orleans, or mainly french cajun Louisiana.  There is quite a difference between them and well every other southerner then and now.  "Some slaveholders were black or had some black ancestry. In 1830 there were 3,775 such slaveholders in the South, with 80% of them located in Louisiana, South Carolina, Virginia, and Maryland. There were economic differences between free blacks of the Upper South and Deep South, with the latter fewer in number, but wealthier and typically of mixed race. Half of the black slaveholders lived in cities rather than the countryside, with most in New Orleans and Charleston." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States#Free_black_people_and_slavery That was 1830. The war was 30 years later, so more free black men had slaves at the time of the war. Well you are only proving what I said in the quote.  Seriously look up the history on New Orleans, or mainly french cajun Louisiana.  It isn't like the rest of the south during that time.  Still really isn't.  Main difference being its southern European roots and roots in Catholicism which is unlike the rest of the south.  And none of this really has any relevance to the inital points.  Whehter or not there were a few select cases of blacks having freedom, you can't turn that mound of dirt into a mountain.  What I can't do, is convince you that it wasn't all about slavery. And I never said the south was all like New Orleans, I just stated there were many free black men in New Orleans that owned slaves.   Well, no, you can't convince me that racism wasn't the underlying reason because that would simply be false.  Slavery was the main issue scattered with other ideas such as states' rights (more for the upper class) but at the heart of all it was racism.  All I'm really trying to say, is I see a lot of people trying to defend the Confederates or play the entire thing off as just an overarching government taking away freedoms.  I'm trying to stop people from thinking that way about the American Civil War simply because its not true.  Some of that existed, but the whole underlying reason that pushed everyone in the south over the edge was racism.  Don't martyr them, as there is nothing about their intentions that were noble or had justice in mind.   Well my point wasn't about that with New Orleans, I'm just telling you to understand why it was that in New Orleans.  Obivously your not from my state and don't know the culture, but there is a reason why New Orleans is different which is why I said for you to look it up.  I couldn't expect you to know it which is why I suggested just seeing why New Orleans was different and why it can't be used as the case for the rest.  Why were there thousands of black men fighting for the south, if it was all about racism? btw, I graduated from Bossier City High School ;)  Dude, racism was a huge part of it. White males wanted to be superior and aspire to owning slaves. The Confederacy even made a decree that any black man captured and found to be wearing Union army attire would be executed. The whole succession due to Lincoln's victory was the paranoia that Lincoln would end slavery. The very fact the KKK began and southern whites went to such extremes to keep the oppression and fear on blacks thereafter prove as much.

One thing should be noted.

One of the "doomsday" scenarios for the south that they were REALLY close to executing was to in fact declare their slaves free.  They started passing around info to various slaves that the north had all kinds of extra jobs and money.

The south was plannung to free all of their slaves.   On the condition that all of the slaves would go to the North.  

There plan was, that if they released all their slaves, it would wreck the norths economy, as all of a sudden HUGE amounts of poorly educated, free blacks woud flood all of the Norths big cities... forcing the North to have a HUGE economic crisis and forcing them to end their war with the south.  This was after their plan to arm their slaves failed.

Even if slavery was the main cause of the civil war, by the END of the Civil war it wasn't.

Kasz216 said: PhoenixKing said: TheRealMafoo said: Zucas said: TheRealMafoo said: Zucas said: TheRealMafoo said: Zucas said: Wooh you need to check your cultural history on New Orleans, or mainly french cajun Louisiana.  There is quite a difference between them and well every other southerner then and now.  "Some slaveholders were black or had some black ancestry. In 1830 there were 3,775 such slaveholders in the South, with 80% of them located in Louisiana, South Carolina, Virginia, and Maryland. There were economic differences between free blacks of the Upper South and Deep South, with the latter fewer in number, but wealthier and typically of mixed race. Half of the black slaveholders lived in cities rather than the countryside, with most in New Orleans and Charleston." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States#Free_black_people_and_slavery That was 1830. The war was 30 years later, so more free black men had slaves at the time of the war. Well you are only proving what I said in the quote.  Seriously look up the history on New Orleans, or mainly french cajun Louisiana.  It isn't like the rest of the south during that time.  Still really isn't.  Main difference being its southern European roots and roots in Catholicism which is unlike the rest of the south.  And none of this really has any relevance to the inital points.  Whehter or not there were a few select cases of blacks having freedom, you can't turn that mound of dirt into a mountain.  What I can't do, is convince you that it wasn't all about slavery. And I never said the south was all like New Orleans, I just stated there were many free black men in New Orleans that owned slaves.   Well, no, you can't convince me that racism wasn't the underlying reason because that would simply be false.  Slavery was the main issue scattered with other ideas such as states' rights (more for the upper class) but at the heart of all it was racism.  All I'm really trying to say, is I see a lot of people trying to defend the Confederates or play the entire thing off as just an overarching government taking away freedoms.  I'm trying to stop people from thinking that way about the American Civil War simply because its not true.  Some of that existed, but the whole underlying reason that pushed everyone in the south over the edge was racism.  Don't martyr them, as there is nothing about their intentions that were noble or had justice in mind.   Well my point wasn't about that with New Orleans, I'm just telling you to understand why it was that in New Orleans.  Obivously your not from my state and don't know the culture, but there is a reason why New Orleans is different which is why I said for you to look it up.  I couldn't expect you to know it which is why I suggested just seeing why New Orleans was different and why it can't be used as the case for the rest.  Why were there thousands of black men fighting for the south, if it was all about racism? btw, I graduated from Bossier City High School ;)  Dude, racism was a huge part of it. White males wanted to be superior and aspire to owning slaves. The Confederacy even made a decree that any black man captured and found to be wearing Union army attire would be executed. The whole succession due to Lincoln's victory was the paranoia that Lincoln would end slavery. The very fact the KKK began and southern whites went to such extremes to keep the oppression and fear on blacks thereafter prove as much. One thing should be noted. One of the "doomsday" scenarios for the south that they were REALLY close to executing was to in fact declare their slaves free.  They started passing around info to various slaves that the north had all kinds of extra jobs and money. The south was plannung to free all of their slaves.   On the condition that all of the slaves would go to the North.   There plan was, that if they released all their slaves, it would wreck the norths economy, as all of a sudden HUGE amounts of poorly educated, free blacks woud flood all of the Norths big cities... forcing the North to have a HUGE economic crisis and forcing them to end their war with the south.  This was after their plan to arm their slaves failed. Even if slavery was the main cause of the civil war, by the END of the Civil war it wasn't.

Right, then explain the KKK's existence, the Jim Crow and other anti-black laws, and the fact they didn't do this plan after the Civil War.

Stop downplaying racism.

PhoenixKing said: Right, then explain the KKK's existence, the Jim Crow and other anti-black laws, and the fact they didn't do this plan after the Civil War. Stop downplaying racism.

The KKK stated after the war ended. And it was started by extremist and the group only lasted 5-10 years. The KKK we know today is not the same group. Using them as an example of how all the south felt, is like saying all Americans are terrorists, because we have terror cells in the US.

BTW, the person who fought the KKK, and is credited with there removal, is from Florida.

PhoenixKing said: Kasz216 said: PhoenixKing said: TheRealMafoo said: Zucas said: TheRealMafoo said: Zucas said: TheRealMafoo said: Zucas said: Wooh you need to check your cultural history on New Orleans, or mainly french cajun Louisiana.  There is quite a difference between them and well every other southerner then and now.  "Some slaveholders were black or had some black ancestry. In 1830 there were 3,775 such slaveholders in the South, with 80% of them located in Louisiana, South Carolina, Virginia, and Maryland. There were economic differences between free blacks of the Upper South and Deep South, with the latter fewer in number, but wealthier and typically of mixed race. Half of the black slaveholders lived in cities rather than the countryside, with most in New Orleans and Charleston." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States#Free_black_people_and_slavery That was 1830. The war was 30 years later, so more free black men had slaves at the time of the war. Well you are only proving what I said in the quote.  Seriously look up the history on New Orleans, or mainly french cajun Louisiana.  It isn't like the rest of the south during that time.  Still really isn't.  Main difference being its southern European roots and roots in Catholicism which is unlike the rest of the south.  And none of this really has any relevance to the inital points.  Whehter or not there were a few select cases of blacks having freedom, you can't turn that mound of dirt into a mountain.  What I can't do, is convince you that it wasn't all about slavery. And I never said the south was all like New Orleans, I just stated there were many free black men in New Orleans that owned slaves.   Well, no, you can't convince me that racism wasn't the underlying reason because that would simply be false.  Slavery was the main issue scattered with other ideas such as states' rights (more for the upper class) but at the heart of all it was racism.  All I'm really trying to say, is I see a lot of people trying to defend the Confederates or play the entire thing off as just an overarching government taking away freedoms.  I'm trying to stop people from thinking that way about the American Civil War simply because its not true.  Some of that existed, but the whole underlying reason that pushed everyone in the south over the edge was racism.  Don't martyr them, as there is nothing about their intentions that were noble or had justice in mind.   Well my point wasn't about that with New Orleans, I'm just telling you to understand why it was that in New Orleans.  Obivously your not from my state and don't know the culture, but there is a reason why New Orleans is different which is why I said for you to look it up.  I couldn't expect you to know it which is why I suggested just seeing why New Orleans was different and why it can't be used as the case for the rest.  Why were there thousands of black men fighting for the south, if it was all about racism? btw, I graduated from Bossier City High School ;)  Dude, racism was a huge part of it. White males wanted to be superior and aspire to owning slaves. The Confederacy even made a decree that any black man captured and found to be wearing Union army attire would be executed. The whole succession due to Lincoln's victory was the paranoia that Lincoln would end slavery. The very fact the KKK began and southern whites went to such extremes to keep the oppression and fear on blacks thereafter prove as much. One thing should be noted. One of the "doomsday" scenarios for the south that they were REALLY close to executing was to in fact declare their slaves free.  They started passing around info to various slaves that the north had all kinds of extra jobs and money. The south was plannung to free all of their slaves.   On the condition that all of the slaves would go to the North.   There plan was, that if they released all their slaves, it would wreck the norths economy, as all of a sudden HUGE amounts of poorly educated, free blacks woud flood all of the Norths big cities... forcing the North to have a HUGE economic crisis and forcing them to end their war with the south.  This was after their plan to arm their slaves failed. Even if slavery was the main cause of the civil war, by the END of the Civil war it wasn't. Right, then explain the KKK's existence, the Jim Crow and other anti-black laws, and the fact they didn't do this plan after the Civil War. Stop downplaying racism.

If i'm seeing your question here... you are asking why they didn't try to get all the poor black people to go to the North. While simaltaniously asking why they did a bunch of horrible things to black people.

Having slaves wasn't(or isn't) about racism. Racism justified slavery.

The reason why Lincoln wanted to abolish slavery wasn't because he cared about the black people. A lot of black people ran from the south to the north and causing problems there(stealing, etc), so that's why most of the Northern states were against slavery(they didn't need slaves for their economy)

Saying the South is racist and the North isn't, is the biggest bullshit I've heard in this thread. It's not like the Afro-Americans had a good and happy life after the civil war... USA was a racist country until the 1960s.

And just to throw something random in here, Lincoln was a horrible president.