By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - General - So my professor told me Democracies never go to war in class a few days ago

makingmusic476 said:
Zucas said:
TheRealMafoo said:
THe civil war started in 1861. Slavery was not outlawed until after the war, in 1868.

It has less to do with slavery, and more to do with the souther states not liking the federal government taking over there laws (that suited the north much more then the south).

Now if only there was a way to accomplish what they were trying to do, without war. That would be awesome. Time has proven them right.

Are you from the south or ever lived down here for any period of time.  I don't make assumptions, but if you've ever been down here you would know exactly that slavery and black rights WERE the biggest issues for the South seceeding from the Union.  Sure States' Rights was an issue for the rich, but most of the south was poor.  Deep, cemented racism is what pissed the poor white southernors off to break awy from the union, not the government telling them what to do.  The south is not like Paris: they don't protest everything just because its fun.  If it were any other issue, I'm sure they wouldn't have gone to war over it, although might have been pissed.  But the thought of a black man being free in their state with the same rights, is what pissed the southernors off enough to say "fuck you America". 

I don't know what the history books are teaching the kids these days, but trying to throw the Civil War off as having not to do mainly with racial issues would be like trying to say the Holocaust was allowed to happen without the help of anti-Semitism throughout Europe.  Sure there are other reasons and both cases, but we all know what the real reason is.

I don't try to hide the history of my state or region.  Racism was strong then, and still pretty strong now.  There is a history of rebelliousness down here, but so is there throughout all of America: we share the same founding fathers.  But there isn't anyone in the world that knows the history of southern America, that wouldn't tell you that racism played the biggest part in the secession of the southern sates. 

 

Bah, what are they trying to tell people nowadays.  Maybe should have a law like in Germany where you can deny the Holocaust, where here ya can't twist the Civil War around to support your form of anarchy. 

 

~95% of white male southerners (including my great great grandfather) didn't own a single slave.  I doubt they were willing to sacrifice their lives just so those rich plantation owners you speak of could keep their slaves.  There were far deeper political issues at stake.

And I wouldn't be surprised if the Civil War actually furthered racial divisions in the South, helping to prolong racial issues well into the modern era.  I'm sure many looked upon freed slaves as a giant flashing sign saying "haha you lost", and I wouldn't be surprised if that created a strong sense of resenment towards the black race that lasted for decades, and still has struggled to fade. 

And the US was the only country that ended the practice of slavery through war (and an incredibly bloody war at that).  Every other country gradually outlawed slavery and came to terms with their racial issues in a peaceful manner, and the way in which things were handled here in all likelihood increased racial tensions at the time.

And just looking at the advent of the war shows what issues were at stake. Only the Deep South states of Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Florida, and South Carolina seceded upon the election of Abraham Lincoln.  Virginia, Arkansas, Tennessee, and North Carolina only seceded AFTER arms were taken up against the Deep Southern states, once they saw that even the right of secession was being challenged.

From wiki (it's a crappy source, but whatever):

Four states in the upper South (Tennessee, Arkansas, North Carolina, and Virginia), which had repeatedly rejected Confederate overtures, now refused to send forces against their neighbors, declared their secession, and joined the Confederacy.

Deeper political issues that 95% of the normal people didn't give a shit about.  All they gave a shit about was if Black people would be able to walk around near them.  Sure rich people, or plantation owners had other interests, but we know why the masses cared about this and probably still to this day.  Come on don't give these guys who don't know anything about the south anything haha.



Around the Network
Zucas said:

Deeper political issues that 95% of the normal people didn't give a shit about.  All they gave a shit about was if Black people would be able to walk around near them.  Sure rich people, or plantation owners had other interests, but we know why the masses cared about this and probably still to this day.  Come on don't give these guys who don't know anything about the south anything haha.

There were well over 100,000 free black men in the south, and less then 1% of white men owned slaves. It was not as much about slavery as people today would make it out to be. 10% of all free black men in New Orleans owned slaves (only place where these statistics were kept).

Do you think you would have half the nation today want to go to war, if the US passed a law that just screwed the top 1% richest people in the country?

Not remotely. Not then either.

Also, thousands of black free men fought for the south, and unlike in the north they fought integrated. The north have black regimens. Same was true for working conditions. In the south white and black men worked side by side all the time. In the north, if you hired a black man, white men would quit more times then not.

And lastly, the south was moving to abolish slavery anyway, they were just doing it at a slower pace.

It's really hard to get into the heads of people who lived so long ago, and look at all the factors and pick out what was important to them. If you dropped a man from today into 1855, Slavery would be the most important thing to get rid of. A 25 year old born in 1830 who grew up in those time, would not think like we do.



TheRealMafoo said:
Zucas said:

Deeper political issues that 95% of the normal people didn't give a shit about.  All they gave a shit about was if Black people would be able to walk around near them.  Sure rich people, or plantation owners had other interests, but we know why the masses cared about this and probably still to this day.  Come on don't give these guys who don't know anything about the south anything haha.

There were well over 100,000 free black men in the south, and less then 1% of white men owned slaves. It was not as much about slavery as people today would make it out to be. 10% of all free black men in New Orleans owned slaves (only place where these statistics were kept).

Do you think you would have half the nation today want to go to war, if the US passed a law that just screwed the top 1% richest people in the country?

Not remotely. Not then either.

Also, thousands of black free men fought for the south, and unlike in the north they fought integrated. The north have black regimens. Same was true for working conditions. In the south white and black men worked side by side all the time. In the north, if you hired a black man, white men would quit more times then not.

And lastly, the south was moving to abolish slavery anyway, they were just doing it at a slower pace.

It's really hard to get into the heads of people who lived so long ago, and look at all the factors and pick out what was important to them. If you dropped a man from today into 1855, Slavery would be the most important thing to get rid of. A 25 year old born in 1830 who grew up in those time, would not think like we do.

Wooh you need to check your cultural history on New Orleans, or mainly french cajun Louisiana.  There is quite a difference between them and well every other southerner then and now. 

Well obviously I don't know how they thought then, but neither do you.  So that's a null point.  But if we look at the cirumstances, the history preceding and following it, I think we can get an idea that the majority of the south didn't think to highly of the black population (aside from that creole mix in southern Louisiana which you need to look up).  Hell one of the relatives on  my mother's side is a founding father of this country (Rutlidge... check spelling) and he was kinda the main guy who fought to maintain slavery.  Was quite the bigot.  Of course others owned slaves, but most were ready to acknowledge then that their liberal ideas did not fit with slavery.



Zucas said:

Wooh you need to check your cultural history on New Orleans, or mainly french cajun Louisiana.  There is quite a difference between them and well every other southerner then and now. 

"Some slaveholders were black or had some black ancestry. In 1830 there were 3,775 such slaveholders in the South, with 80% of them located in Louisiana, South Carolina, Virginia, and Maryland. There were economic differences between free blacks of the Upper South and Deep South, with the latter fewer in number, but wealthier and typically of mixed race. Half of the black slaveholders lived in cities rather than the countryside, with most in New Orleans and Charleston."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States#Free_black_people_and_slavery

That was 1830. The war was 30 years later, so more free black men had slaves at the time of the war.



TheRealMafoo said:
Zucas said:

Wooh you need to check your cultural history on New Orleans, or mainly french cajun Louisiana.  There is quite a difference between them and well every other southerner then and now. 

"Some slaveholders were black or had some black ancestry. In 1830 there were 3,775 such slaveholders in the South, with 80% of them located in Louisiana, South Carolina, Virginia, and Maryland. There were economic differences between free blacks of the Upper South and Deep South, with the latter fewer in number, but wealthier and typically of mixed race. Half of the black slaveholders lived in cities rather than the countryside, with most in New Orleans and Charleston."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States#Free_black_people_and_slavery

That was 1830. The war was 30 years later, so more free black men had slaves at the time of the war.

Well you are only proving what I said in the quote.  Seriously look up the history on New Orleans, or mainly french cajun Louisiana.  It isn't like the rest of the south during that time.  Still really isn't.  Main difference being its southern European roots and roots in Catholicism which is unlike the rest of the south. 

And none of this really has any relevance to the inital points.  Whehter or not there were a few select cases of blacks having freedom, you can't turn that mound of dirt into a mountain. 



Around the Network
Zucas said:
Samus Aran said:

Lol, democratic countries have wars.
Just look at Ancient Greece. Athens was a democracy and they were blood thirsty bitches.

And then we have... The United states of America.... Israël... UK... France... Russia(one could even call communism to be a form of democracy)

Yes but Greek city-states aren't the best example, mainly because they were a Theocracy. Obivously its hard to tell because we look at it from a different stance, but there was no separation of church and state in Ancient Greece. There was never anything like that back then, because that was absurd then. So while having a from of democracy, is was also very religious which obviously conflicting theocracies will clash. Which the greek city-states did all the time. Not that they believed in different gods, but obvious we know that never plays into anything haha.

Actually it was unheard of that the "king" or leaders were related to the gods in Greek city-states. It was only after Alexander the Great invaded Persia that the kings were related to the gods. It was mostly because the foreign population they ruled over believed that crap and it was a way to legitimise their power. Seleukos and the Ptolemaios are good examples of this. Religion wasn't the reason why the city-states waged war.

 

Not all city-states were democracies though, you also had a lot of oligarchies.



Zucas said:
TheRealMafoo said:
Zucas said:

Wooh you need to check your cultural history on New Orleans, or mainly french cajun Louisiana.  There is quite a difference between them and well every other southerner then and now. 

"Some slaveholders were black or had some black ancestry. In 1830 there were 3,775 such slaveholders in the South, with 80% of them located in Louisiana, South Carolina, Virginia, and Maryland. There were economic differences between free blacks of the Upper South and Deep South, with the latter fewer in number, but wealthier and typically of mixed race. Half of the black slaveholders lived in cities rather than the countryside, with most in New Orleans and Charleston."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States#Free_black_people_and_slavery

That was 1830. The war was 30 years later, so more free black men had slaves at the time of the war.

Well you are only proving what I said in the quote.  Seriously look up the history on New Orleans, or mainly french cajun Louisiana.  It isn't like the rest of the south during that time.  Still really isn't.  Main difference being its southern European roots and roots in Catholicism which is unlike the rest of the south. 

And none of this really has any relevance to the inital points.  Whehter or not there were a few select cases of blacks having freedom, you can't turn that mound of dirt into a mountain. 

What I can't do, is convince you that it wasn't all about slavery.

And I never said the south was all like New Orleans, I just stated there were many free black men in New Orleans that owned slaves.

 



Samus Aran said:
Zucas said:
Samus Aran said:

Lol, democratic countries have wars.
Just look at Ancient Greece. Athens was a democracy and they were blood thirsty bitches.

And then we have... The United states of America.... Israël... UK... France... Russia(one could even call communism to be a form of democracy)

Yes but Greek city-states aren't the best example, mainly because they were a Theocracy. Obivously its hard to tell because we look at it from a different stance, but there was no separation of church and state in Ancient Greece. There was never anything like that back then, because that was absurd then. So while having a from of democracy, is was also very religious which obviously conflicting theocracies will clash. Which the greek city-states did all the time. Not that they believed in different gods, but obvious we know that never plays into anything haha.

Actually it was unheard of that the "king" or leaders were related to the gods in Greek city-states. It was only after Alexander the Great invaded Persia that the kings were related to the gods. It was mostly because the foreign population they ruled over believed that crap and it was a way to legitimise their power. Seleukos and the Ptolemaios are good examples of this. Religion wasn't the reason why the city-states waged war.

 

Not all city-states were democracies though, you also had a lot of oligarchies.


Actually if I remember correctly Phillip the Great. Alexander's dad claimed to have been descended from Hercules. Who of course was son of Zeus. I think it was fairly common for some kings to claim to be descended from a Heracleidae

Kasz216 said:
Samus Aran said:
Zucas said:
Samus Aran said:

Lol, democratic countries have wars.
Just look at Ancient Greece. Athens was a democracy and they were blood thirsty bitches.

And then we have... The United states of America.... Israël... UK... France... Russia(one could even call communism to be a form of democracy)

Yes but Greek city-states aren't the best example, mainly because they were a Theocracy. Obivously its hard to tell because we look at it from a different stance, but there was no separation of church and state in Ancient Greece. There was never anything like that back then, because that was absurd then. So while having a from of democracy, is was also very religious which obviously conflicting theocracies will clash. Which the greek city-states did all the time. Not that they believed in different gods, but obvious we know that never plays into anything haha.

Actually it was unheard of that the "king" or leaders were related to the gods in Greek city-states. It was only after Alexander the Great invaded Persia that the kings were related to the gods. It was mostly because the foreign population they ruled over believed that crap and it was a way to legitimise their power. Seleukos and the Ptolemaios are good examples of this. Religion wasn't the reason why the city-states waged war.

 

Not all city-states were democracies though, you also had a lot of oligarchies.


Actually if I remember correctly Phillip the Great. Alexander's dad claimed to have been descended from Hercules. Who of course was son of Zeus. I think it was fairly common for some kings to claim to be descended from a Heracleidae

Well the invasion of Macedonia with Philip the Great was the end of the city-states being independant. It wasn't the end of the city-states though because they florished in the Hellenistic time(that starts with Alexander the Great), but they weren't independant anymore.

Spartans also claimed to have been descended from Hercules him self, but they hardly ever fought a real war and they didn't consider them self a god at all! There's also a big difference between calling yourself descendant of Hercules and calling your self son of Zeus-Amon you know ;)

Alexander the Great was *considered* a living god, his father? Nope.

And don't forget that the other Greek city-states considered the Macedonians to be almost barbarians(but they were also greek, forget about the country that's called Macedonia today, they have no right to call them Macedonians as they can't even speak Greek.)



Samus Aran said:
Kasz216 said:
Samus Aran said:
Zucas said:
Samus Aran said:

Lol, democratic countries have wars.
Just look at Ancient Greece. Athens was a democracy and they were blood thirsty bitches.

And then we have... The United states of America.... Israël... UK... France... Russia(one could even call communism to be a form of democracy)

Yes but Greek city-states aren't the best example, mainly because they were a Theocracy. Obivously its hard to tell because we look at it from a different stance, but there was no separation of church and state in Ancient Greece. There was never anything like that back then, because that was absurd then. So while having a from of democracy, is was also very religious which obviously conflicting theocracies will clash. Which the greek city-states did all the time. Not that they believed in different gods, but obvious we know that never plays into anything haha.

Actually it was unheard of that the "king" or leaders were related to the gods in Greek city-states. It was only after Alexander the Great invaded Persia that the kings were related to the gods. It was mostly because the foreign population they ruled over believed that crap and it was a way to legitimise their power. Seleukos and the Ptolemaios are good examples of this. Religion wasn't the reason why the city-states waged war.

 

Not all city-states were democracies though, you also had a lot of oligarchies.


Actually if I remember correctly Phillip the Great. Alexander's dad claimed to have been descended from Hercules. Who of course was son of Zeus. I think it was fairly common for some kings to claim to be descended from a Heracleidae

Well the invasion of Macedonia with Philip the Great was the end of the city-states being independant. It wasn't the end of the city-states though because they florished in the Hellenistic time(that starts with Alexander the Great), but they weren't independant anymore.

Spartans also claimed to have been descended from Hercules him self, but they hardly ever fought a real war and they didn't consider them self a god at all! There's also a big difference between calling yourself descendant of Hercules and calling your self son of Zeus-Amon you know ;)

Alexander the Great was *considered* a living god, his father? Nope.

And don't forget that the other Greek city-states considered the Macedonians to be almost barbarians(but they were also greek, forget about the country that's called Macedonia today, they have no right to call them Macedonians as they can't even speak Greek.)

He said that it wasn't unheard of for the kings of the greek city states to be related to the gods.

Hercules was son of zeus.  Ergo being the son of hercules made Zeus your grandpappy.

I'm well are the greek's didn't consider the Macedonians greek.  They weren't alowed into the Olympics until Phillip actually kicked some ass and forced his way in.  That's one reason why they think he may have claimed that.  So his "greekness" would be assured.

Normal Greek and Macedonian word meanings did seem to have their subtle differences.