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Forums - Gaming - BioShock 2 DLC already on Disc

r505Matt on 15 March 2010
mirgro said:
twesterm said:
 

lol, they may have quantity and price, but they generally don't have quality.

There may be some really good mods out there, but for every good mod there are 100 bad ones.

And I'm not sure why you think the modding community is gone.  What modding community do you think has suddenly vanished?  The only one I can think of that's going to go is the Starcraft community, but since that's Blizzard and they can do no wrong...

Oh no they had quality too. Again, they weren't all good, but each game ahd at least one amazing mod. Sometimes even 2 or 3. That's far more than any publisher has released for any game. Some of the most successful games started off as mods infact.

As for which communities are gone. What about MW2? What about BioShock? What about ME? What about a majority of the biggest games? The last huge game that had mod support was CoD4, and that was only for the PC. UT3 showed mods works perfectly fine for consoles as well. Funny thing, all releases for UT3 from the publisher have been free, I wonder why that is.

Actually, I think software modding is illegal if it's not okayed by the publisher. I'm not sure, I just remember in my perusal of laws regarding hardware, I found that modding hardware itself is 100% legal, but modding firmware is not because modding software was illegal. Again, I'm not sure, do you know anything about this?

Haha wow, can you feel the lack of confidence in what I just typed up =)



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twesterm on 15 March 2010
r505Matt said:
mirgro said:
twesterm said:
 

lol, they may have quantity and price, but they generally don't have quality.

There may be some really good mods out there, but for every good mod there are 100 bad ones.

And I'm not sure why you think the modding community is gone.  What modding community do you think has suddenly vanished?  The only one I can think of that's going to go is the Starcraft community, but since that's Blizzard and they can do no wrong...

Oh no they had quality too. Again, they weren't all good, but each game ahd at least one amazing mod. Sometimes even 2 or 3. That's far more than any publisher has released for any game. Some of the most successful games started off as mods infact.

As for which communities are gone. What about MW2? What about BioShock? What about ME? What about a majority of the biggest games? The last huge game that had mod support was CoD4, and that was only for the PC. UT3 showed mods works perfectly fine for consoles as well. Funny thing, all releases for UT3 from the publisher have been free, I wonder why that is.

Actually, I think software modding is illegal if it's not okayed by the publisher. I'm not sure, I just remember in my perusal of laws regarding hardware, I found that modding hardware itself is 100% legal, but modding firmware is not because modding software was illegal. Again, I'm not sure, do you know anything about this?

Haha wow, can you feel the lack of confidence in what I just typed up =)

For the most part, it's not illegal. 

As for the communities that are gone, I wasn't even aware Bioshock had a community and as far as I know MW2 never had a modding community.  Modern Warfare might have and I assume it's still there since MW2 doesn't have one.  Same for Mass Effect (which I also wasn't aware had an active community, though I'm not surprised).

UT3 stuff is free because they're making money from the engine itself.

Entities like Ubisoft don't have that revenue so they have to make their money from the games.  I'm absolutely positive they would love to have their own WoW, Steam, or UE3 to feed off of but they don't so they must rely on games.



 

mirgro on 15 March 2010
twesterm said:

For the most part, it's not illegal. 

As for the communities that are gone, I wasn't even aware Bioshock had a community and as far as I know MW2 never had a modding community.  Modern Warfare might have and I assume it's still there since MW2 doesn't have one.  Same for Mass Effect (which I also wasn't aware had an active community, though I'm not surprised).

UT3 stuff is free because they're making money from the engine itself.

Entities like Ubisoft don't have that revenue so they have to make their money from the games.  I'm absolutely positive they would love to have their own WoW, Steam, or UE3 to feed off of but they don't so they must rely on games.

That is the whole point. There are no communities because publishers don't want communities. They don't allow anything to be modded. If they had been released several years earlier you can bet anything they would have had modding tools and or the whole SDK to work with. In fact UT3 for the PC came with the whole UE3 engine, literally everything, for free. As long as you didn't sell for money you were cool.

Publishers don't support modders anymore because they know modders release more, better, and cheaper software than they ever could. Only the worthwhile companies do it anymore.



twesterm on 15 March 2010
mirgro said:
twesterm said:
 

For the most part, it's not illegal. 

As for the communities that are gone, I wasn't even aware Bioshock had a community and as far as I know MW2 never had a modding community.  Modern Warfare might have and I assume it's still there since MW2 doesn't have one.  Same for Mass Effect (which I also wasn't aware had an active community, though I'm not surprised).

UT3 stuff is free because they're making money from the engine itself.

Entities like Ubisoft don't have that revenue so they have to make their money from the games.  I'm absolutely positive they would love to have their own WoW, Steam, or UE3 to feed off of but they don't so they must rely on games.

That is the whole point. There are no communities because publishers don't want communities. They don't allow anything to be modded. If they had been released several years earlier you can bet anything they would have had modding tools and or the whole SDK to work with. In fact UT3 for the PC came with the whole UE3 engine, literally everything, for free. As long as you didn't sell for money you were cool.

Publishers don't support modders anymore because they know modders release more, better, and cheaper software than they ever could. Only the worthwhile companies do it anymore.

Publishers don't have a problem with communities, they have a problem with people pirating their software.  Modding communities just happen to be an innocent bystander of the war against that you have nobody to blame but pirates.



 

elticker on 15 March 2010
mirgro said:
twesterm said:
mirgro said:
twesterm said:
 

Modders either aren't professionals or professionals just having fun so it makes sense not to pay for that.

Modders can try to sell their work, but then of course they would have to license the engine in most cases.

Funny thing about that. There are many many modders who have struck it rich and gotten highered because of their work.

TF, Portal, etc. were started by modders. Counter-Strike was a mod. DICE started off as modders. A lot of the Epic map designers were modders. I am sorry, but modded content has been good for a while now. Not everything was golden, but there were many such mods.

Now this generation, modding tools are no longer supported, and the reason for that is for the publisher to make money out of things that modders could provide in endless supply. They are just excuses for their feeling of entitlement, just like a pirates, but they try their hardest to cover what they are doing, something a pirate doesn't bother with. It's the same logic, applied the other way, it's funny that you can somehow rationalize all this DLC, yet not be able to rationalize piracy.

They were hired later though and someone bought that, totally different things.

Also, you can't consider that the norm.  Thousands upon thousands of mods get made a year...how many strike it big?

(and I'm not ignoring the Bioshock 2 bit, I just don't have the case in front of me so it's pointless to talk about it at the moment until I get home later tonight)

I fully understand that the norm was bad. However the outliers were more numerous than anything current publishers release. Furthermore, those outliers were also very professionally done. So modders have the following thing on publishers: quantity, quality, and price. But because of their feeling of entitlement, just liek you mentioned pirates have, publishers have found insidious ways to remove such practices and get what they feel they are entitled to. Then make up even worse excuses than any excuse I have ever heard of from a pirate.

Just admit it, developers have the same wrong entitlement as pirates, no way around it.

does that include bungie (halo 3) cause i could mod any map and put it for download ofcourse you let people download it for free and i can create play lists and weapons wouldnt that be consider a map mod and a playlist mod since both have been slightly or hugely modified of what they originally were.



 

 

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mirgro on 15 March 2010
twesterm said:
 

Publishers don't have a problem with communities, they have a problem with people pirating their software.  Modding communities just happen to be an innocent bystander of the war against that you have nobody to blame but pirates.

Oh please. I would love to hear how pirates are the cause of no games being released with modding tools.

@elticker

The Forge is so limiting it can barely be called a modding tool. I mean, hell, then LBP is one big huge modding tool. What they in fact have are very basic map editors, and that's it. Kind of like how the Warcraft 3 game had a map editor, and Frozen Throne had an all out modding tool, though not as good as some other ones. For a moddint toosl to be worth anything, they need to be able to support foreign code and be able to import assets.



twesterm on 16 March 2010
Demotruk said:
twesterm said:
Demotruk said:
You have the right to do whatever you want with your copy so long as you don't produce or distribute more copies. That's the law.

You do not.  Even though those games I looked at didn't have EULA's, they did have fine print explicitely saying it is not fine to copy or reproduce the content in any way at all.

You can sell your license (game), but you can't sell the content since you do not own it.

You've already been disproven on the license thing. The game is not a license, there is no EULA. That includes Bioshock 2, I'm finding plenty of evidence for a Bioshock 2 EULA on PC online, but none on the consoles.

 

You can't distribute further copies, but that doesn't prevent you from doing anything you like with your copy. Just like with a book you can share it, trade it, destroy it, edit it, whatever you want, it's yours.

Alrighty, sorry for being late.  I was busy yesterday and didn't have time but this morning I took a few minutes to look over the Bioshock 2 EULA (and yes, there is one in the console version) and even look at my copy of The World Ends With You.

  1. Again, Bioshock 2 has a EULA, I have reaffirmed every game has one which I will get to in a second.
  2. The Bioshock 2 EULA explicitely calls out its license and what you can and cannot do with it.  I don't have the time nor the want to type it out because there's a lot of it but it reaffirms everything I've said.
  3. An interesting thing in I noticed in the license agreement was the bit I saw in the The World Ends With You Manual.  They both have the you cannot copy, redistribute, back up, blah blah blah bit.  In TWEWY, that is the license agreement.  If you can't copy it, you don't own it.  That's the part I was missing yesterday and that's what every game has at the bare minimum.


 

Demotruk on 16 March 2010

Huh, there's nothing like that in my PAL TWEWY manual. There's the seal of quality statement on the inside page, and the health and safety statement, then there's the actual manual contents, a page about warranty and then customer service/tech support, some ads, a page about the PEGI and then on the back a few copyright symbols. It never says anything about not being able to copy or distribute, even though that's pretty much what the law already is, not even on the back of the box.

I'm surprised at Bioshock 2 having one in the console versions.



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