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Forums - Sony Discussion - Its been 3 and a half years and NOW there understanding the Cell?!

slowmo said:
There is no answer to the question that will not cause offence to the pro Sony camp on this site. I will be subtle and say simply its the not the developers fault that Sony released a console with a overly complex architecture with very poor development toolset in comparison to their opposition.

The Cell has been understood since day one its just not worth the time and effort for most DIRECT X  PC game  developers who mainly target the PC and XBOX360 to master it, its not like they're ND getting big paychecks from Sony to paint the PS3 in a better light.

there fixed it for you.



I AM BOLO

100% lover "nothing else matter's" after that...

ps:

Proud psOne/2/3/p owner.  I survived Aplcalyps3 and all I got was this lousy Signature.

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Pause-N-Process said:

This is pure flame bait.... Short and simple. almost nothing stated above is even true. uncharted 2 came over 6 months ago, how does that math work out? even then, if this is about developers then they had the ability LONG before the game came out. Producing software under optimal conditions still takes a chunk of time. Considering most games take anywhere between 1-3 years development time i don't really understand the point of this thread other than to cause arguments and stirr up unneeded flaming..  this thread should be deleted or someone needs to do some serious editing...

I wanted to get people's opinions on why it took so long for the developers to be able to use a large percentage of the Cell processor's power. I created this thread for that purpose because it has been bugging me for the last couple of days. No flaming intended, nor do I want flaming to occur in this thread. But that is impossible because this is the internet. 



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binary solo said:
I just want to be a complete dick and point out to the OP'er that the correct word to use in the thread title is "they're" not "there".

Otherwise I have nothing in particular to say on this topic.

Carry on.

Oh thanks dude, I didn't catch that earlier. My bad :p



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Poorly designed and thought out console, lack of decent dev tools, expensive and time consuming development and no real reason to improve. Basically the shitty PS3 ports still sell fine, and making them look better can't be justified when those incremental improvements would cost so much more, and add development time that may cost a game to miss its marketing window.

And I wouldn't be surprised if Sony was withholding the documentation and techniques that their studios have access to from third party developers - its what Nintendo did with the 64.



Leo-j said: If a dvd for a pc game holds what? Crysis at 3000p or something, why in the world cant a blu-ray disc do the same?

ssj12 said: Player specific decoders are nothing more than specialized GPUs. Gran Turismo is the trust driving simulator of them all. 

"Why do they call it the xbox 360? Because when you see it, you'll turn 360 degrees and walk away" 

The Cell's unique architecture ensures it won't be utilized very much by multiplatform developers. Just look at God of War III. Sony Santa Monica have somehow managed to get even anti-aliasing running on the Cell. This is pretty much impossible with a multiplatform engine.

The Cell is just fine, if not great, for game development, so long as developers can focus entirely on its strengths.

The issue is that only first parties will actually do this. Even when FFXIII was still exclusive, and they were developing it with exclusivity in mind, they were still developing it on an engine that was designed to be multiplatform.  Crazy ideas like running AA entirely on the CPU (or the entire lighting engine, as is the case with Killzone 2) just aren't going to work.

So long as third parties are unable to make use of the ps3's biggest asset, multiplatform games will continue to look equal on both platforms at best, save a few certain areas (and aside from the rare exceptions like FFXIII).

Btw, here's a quote from Sony Santa Monica's Tim Moss on the God of War forums:

AA on the cpu is MLAA Morphological Antialising. We saved 5-6 miliseconds by moving it off the cpu's. Many props to our coder Cedric for making this happen and it looks way better!



For GoW3 we are not using screen space ambient occlusion. We are using a couple other versions of AO including baked for environments, AO texture maps and a pixel calculation that creates better shading on normal maps in indirect lit areas.



Number of dynamic lights - ALOT! that is one of the big features of our engine. We built it around being able to use up to 20 dynamic lights per game object. The light can be big or small, it doesn't matter. In the end, i believe we support up to 50 dynamic lights per game object. We are not using a differed lighting scheme. Our lead programmer Vassily came up with this amazing system during pre-production, us artists love it!!! We can place lights in Maya and have them update in realtime in the game on the PS3, its like being able to paint with lights. Lighting is fast and a very enjoyable artistic process.



Off the top of my head i don't remember exactly poly count numbers for the character. We use as many polys as it takes. My guess for Zues, Kratos and Hades is 25-30,000k triangles. Again, off the top of my head, texture sizes for these character is quite big. I think we are using 2048's for the lower, upper body and head. Each character gets a normal, diffuse, specular, gloss(power map), AO, and skin shader map. We also use can layer textures to create more tiling, and use environment maps were needed, etc.



Yes we will be using Hollywood actors. I believe on another forum thread it includes the names.



Yes we will be referencing GoW1 and GoW2 in the game - i won't give away what it is, just hope you guys dig :smileyhappy:


And one from his twitter:

The #gow3 AA technique saved 5ms from the GPU, costs ~20ms on 5 SPU's (~4ms Latency), its very pretty and only on #ps3



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I must live in a completely different universe, because I was under the impression that I have been playing ground breaking PS3 games since 2007... I guess in this world Uncharted only released in September of last year.



Bet with Conegamer and AussieGecko that the PS3 will have more exclusives in 2011 than the Wii or 360... or something.

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3879752

makingmusic476 said:

The Cell's unique architecture ensures it won't be utilized very much by multiplatform developers. Just look at God of War III. Sony Santa Monica have somehow managed to get even anti-aliasing running on the Cell. This is pretty much impossible with a multiplatform engine.



False. The difference is that only Sony developers tell people outright their SPE useage as some kind of bragging platform. X% use of SPEs have at you! Its obvious that multiplatform developers have been making use of the systems on both systems but they are just a little behind exclusive developers. Edit: Based off the progression of multiplatform titles over time and comments made by multiplatform developers.

 



Do you know what its like to live on the far side of Uranus?

the Metal gear solid 4 team figured it out pretty quickly...but most quality games of this era are going to take longer and longer to come out due to more complicated processors and the time it takes to put together HD graphics.



@untamoi, actually watching the devs videos U1 and U2 engines are entirely different, U1 used a proprietary engine, U2 used a very very modified vers of the unreal engine



Twistedpixel said:
makingmusic476 said:

The Cell's unique architecture ensures it won't be utilized very much by multiplatform developers. Just look at God of War III. Sony Santa Monica have somehow managed to get even anti-aliasing running on the Cell. This is pretty much impossible with a multiplatform engine.



False. The difference is that only Sony developers tell people outright their SPE useage as some kind of bragging platform. X% use of SPEs have at you! Its obvious that multiplatform developers have been making use of the systems on both systems but they are just a little behind exclusive developers.

I somewhat doubt multiplatform developers are willing to jump through hoops to get some rather unique (to say the least) results out of the Cell when the same could not be easily replicated on other platforms.  Hell, that's the reason so many PC devs aren't supporting the ps3 at all (Valve, Piranha Bytes, Gas Powered Games).  They just can't be bothered to do things in a new or different way.

If the engines for the three platforms began diverging that much (having functions being run on the Cell being completely rewritten to run on the Xenos/Radeon/GeForce), it wouldn't be a multiplatform engine so much as one game being built on two engines (ps3 vs pc/360) that happen to share a similar basic structure.  Though I suppose you could still consider it one single engine - a very versatile engine, to say the least.

The only time I've really seen a multiplat developer brag about their Cell usage were Pandemic after completing the Saboteur, and the only difference between the two versions of the game that I know of was the implementation of AA.  Meanwhile, first parties are getting AA, lighting, and various post-processing effects all running on the Cell in their games.

Getting the CPU to fill in for the GPU is simply something that is not easily replicated on other platforms, and its not economical to do things an entirely different way on one platform vs another.  Instead of doing a port you're building a game from the ground up for both systems, and this will lead to major differences between each version of the game (and thus an inevitable backlash from one or both camps), while also adding to the cost of developing the game.

It just doesn't make sense for devs to go down that road, though more power to them if the try.