Soleron said: Yes, it's wrong. But socialised healthcare is needed, immediately. If the Democrats only do one thing with their term it has to be healthcare; they've had everything else blocked by the Republicans and their concessions to "bipartisanship" have not been returned in kind. (From the UK, where the NHS is possibly the only good thing in the whole country. Have experienced the American system; the inequality between rich and not-rich on health is massive and costs the whole country more in the long run [healthy workers benefit everyone]).

I don't think paying out billions we don't have is going to make the country better off.

If we want socialized healthcare, we need to reduce costs first and make it viable to socialize. If it is socialized in its current form (which costs the government $7,500 per Medicare recipient) it will destroy our system, and then the government will either raise taxes immensely, or reduce what the system actually provides....Which will not be better in either case.

And Soleron, I find it odd you say our government spends huge and wasteful amounts of money on public healthcare, yet you say we need more of it. So you want even more wasteful money spent on healthcare? Is your desire to see America ruined?

I just heard Obama say, with respect to reconciliation, that most Americans don't care about the inner-workings of Congress, that they just want a vote.

Un-fucking believable. How is this piece of garbage the man that represents me at the highest level?

He is the biggest piece of shit that has ever held that office.. and we have had a lot of them.

TheRealMafoo said: I just heard Obama say, with respect to reconciliation, that most Americans don't care about the inner-workings of Congress, that they just want a vote. Un-fucking believable. How is this piece of garbage the man that represents me at the highest level? He is the biggest piece of shit that has ever held that office.. and we have had a lot of them.

You kinda wish they'd go more socialist if they're going to bother with that. Normal and universal healthcare each have strengths and weaknesses... but a combination of the two like this only has weaknesses.

Kasz216 said: TheRealMafoo said: I just heard Obama say, with respect to reconciliation, that most Americans don't care about the inner-workings of Congress, that they just want a vote. Un-fucking believable. How is this piece of garbage the man that represents me at the highest level? He is the biggest piece of shit that has ever held that office.. and we have had a lot of them. You kinda wish they'd go more socialist if they're going to bother with that. Normal and universal healthcare each have strengths and weaknesses... but a combination of the two like this only has weaknesses.

I am not pissed off about the bill (the bill sucks, but that's a different issue). I am pissed that the form of government we have in place is about to die.

Why the fuck have a congress? Just have a military coo, and let Obama be King. At least that way I don't have this false sense of democracy as we have known it.

If they do what they are threatening to do, it's time for a revolution. Period.

TheRealMafoo said: Kasz216 said: TheRealMafoo said: I just heard Obama say, with respect to reconciliation, that most Americans don't care about the inner-workings of Congress, that they just want a vote. Un-fucking believable. How is this piece of garbage the man that represents me at the highest level? He is the biggest piece of shit that has ever held that office.. and we have had a lot of them. You kinda wish they'd go more socialist if they're going to bother with that. Normal and universal healthcare each have strengths and weaknesses... but a combination of the two like this only has weaknesses. I am not pissed off about the bill (the bill sucks, but that's a different issue). I am pissed that the form of government we have in place is about to die. Why the fuck have a congress? Just have a military coo, and let Obama be King. At least that way I don't have this false sense of democracy as we have known it. If they do what they are threatening to do, it's time for a revolution. Period.

If they do pass it with reconciliation... they're probably mostly gone by 2012. I mean 73% of america is against the current bill. It's important to note that includes a LOT of democrats. Since democrats actually hold a 3 to 2 majority on republicans.

It's actually amazing at how exponentially worse each president is over the last. At this point, I almost wish George W. Bush was still in office. And I'm wondering how anyone could outdo Obama at this point. I'm sure someone will try!

MontanaHatchet said: It's actually amazing at how exponentially worse each president is over the last. At this point, I almost wish George W. Bush was still in office. And I'm wondering how anyone could outdo Obama at this point. I'm sure someone will try!

I still look back fondly on Clinton personally. If gore would of beat bush he probably would of just kept clinton policy going, never making an inconveint truth and trying to cash in on the global warming stuff... and in general i think the world would of been a better place. 9/11 would of still happened, but No iraq war, maybe not even a FULL afghanistan war and instead a clintonesque just bomb the crap out of them without using any US lives until they give in and give us what we want. (Bin laden.) Probably would even have a REASONABLE good healthcare proposal too.

bimmylee said: ... The more pertinent question is, "why should I be forced to help pay for your healthcare?" It's not that there's people who enjoy seeing others uninsured; it's that there's people who don't enjoy being forced to give away what they've earned to those who haven't earned it (which is the essence of socialism). As for government-run services.... screw 'em. Americans finally got tired of big government and rejected it when they signed the Declaration of Independence over 200 years ago. Socialism/tyranny seems to be back in action under a new guise, however, known as "liberalism." Now where's my torch and pitchfork?

Giving preventative care and regular checkups to the whole population greatly benefits you. It saves many times the expense of emergency care (which you end up paying for in taxes or premiums anyway) when poorer people delay seeing doctors (or don't get cover at all) due to cost.

Healthy workforce => Better economy. Same reason we all pay for state education or state policing - because 100% coverage of the population is far more effective than 60% coverage and 40% emergency or no care, even considering the higher costs of the former.

--

As if you don't already have big government? From an outside perspective, the US government is an employer of epic proportions.

mrstickball said: Soleron said: ... And Soleron, I find it odd you say our government spends huge and wasteful amounts of money on public healthcare, yet you say we need more of it. So you want even more wasteful money spent on healthcare? Is your desire to see America ruined?

No. I'd like to see a fully socialised system. But that would never get passed, so I see the current proposal (broken as it is) as a stepping stone to start the process of reform to see it become like the NHS. I'd eventually like to see private insurance relegated to a minority of the population, as it is in the UK.

TheRealMafoo said: Kasz216 said: TheRealMafoo said: I just heard Obama say, with respect to reconciliation, that most Americans don't care about the inner-workings of Congress, that they just want a vote. Un-fucking believable. How is this piece of garbage the man that represents me at the highest level? He is the biggest piece of shit that has ever held that office.. and we have had a lot of them. You kinda wish they'd go more socialist if they're going to bother with that. Normal and universal healthcare each have strengths and weaknesses... but a combination of the two like this only has weaknesses. I am not pissed off about the bill (the bill sucks, but that's a different issue). I am pissed that the form of government we have in place is about to die. Why the fuck have a congress? Just have a military coo, and let Obama be King. At least that way I don't have this false sense of democracy as we have known it. If they do what they are threatening to do, it's time for a revolution. Period.

As a conservative living under our current ultra-liberal administration, I've often thought that I'll probably do some jail time at some point during the next couple years just for believing what I believe. When you have groups like ACORN, SEIU, and the ACLU out on the prowl, you never know what they'll arrest you (or beat you!!) for saying. Seriously. First Amendment rights, particularly the freedom of speech, have never been in more danger than they are today.

Sad to say, Russ "Rubber Stamp" Carnahan is one of my state representatives...