By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Gaming Discussion - Multiple Disc Argument - It just doesn’t work for anyone.

Skeeuk on 21 February 2010

id prefer no disc swaps. only on rpg games is disc swaps even slightly ok, all other genres it would be lame.



...not much time to post anymore, used to be awesome on here really good fond memories from VGchartz...

PSN: Skeeuk - XBL: SkeeUK - PC: Skeeuk

really miss the VGCHARTZ of 2008 - 2013...

Around the Network
Uberkiffer on 21 February 2010
Jordahn said:

I’ve seen some of the recent debate over which is the better multi-platform (Xbox 360 and PS3) version, using the number of DVD's to a single Blu-ray as a factor of argument on this site.  Sadly, it has been blown out of proportion for the most part, and there is a reality everyone needs to face.

  

It’s just a fact that one disc as opposed to several is a convenience no matter how small of a convenience it is.  And do some blow it out of proportion?  Yes.  But what’s even more annoying is the “we’ve changed discs before back in the past” argument.  It’s now 2010, NOT 1995.  Developers and gamer have the option of Blu-ray NOW as opposed to multiple CD’s IN THE PAST as the only viable options aside from cartridges.  ANY of you who use the “we’ve changed discs before” argument is ONLY making excuses when a PS3 version of a game has the convenience of one Blu-ray.  And not everyone thinks that changing discs is a big idea when one disc is still preferable.  But whether you have that choice or not (usually due to console ownership or lack thereof), it’s still an advantage of convenience.  Did changing discs bothered me on Final Fantasy VII when I first bough my PSOne?  Never did.  Would I have preferred not to change them out now that I look back?  Of course if it could have been helped.  But since it was fine to switch CD’s back two generations ago maybe we should have stuck with CD's for last generation and NOT have used DVD’s while continuing to use CD’s now?  See, I didn’t think so.  In principle, how much simpler can than be?  When the content is practically the came, the less discs the better.


I promise you that it takes me far less time to swamp discs in Mass Effect 2 or Lost Odyssey combined than it does for the 10-15 minutes most every PS3 game takes simply to install for the first time.  The convience of one blu-ray comes with the inconvience of having to wait for longer load screens and waiting for installs.  Where there's a win there is a fail.  If blu-ray could read/seek as quickly as DVD, I wouldn't even bother to post.  But the facts are that I'm 30hrs into ME2 and I've swapped discs 1 time... boo hoo.. a whole 20 seconds of inconvience.  I went over to my buddies house the day Dragon Age came out (after I already had been playing it that day on my 360) and watched in enjoyment (sarcasm) as he had to wait 17 minutes (I timed it) just to be able to play the game.  Yeah... blu-ray is WAAAAAY better.



CommonMan on 21 February 2010
dahuman said:
CommonMan said:
_honeybadger_ said:
TruckOSaurus said:
I haven't read the thread so don't crucify me if it has already been mentionned but playing Metal Gear Solid 4 I would have prefered changing disk for each chapter than waiting for that horrible install time. Especially when I was on chapter 4 and my brother on chapter 3... we had to wait for the install time every time we played.

unrelated to this, the install and the dics size have no relation, blame kojima productions not the fact that it was single dics VS multi dics.


Simliar to this is how Star Ocean 4 had a bunch of disk swapping on the 360, but that wasn't due to DVD that was poor programming on the developers part, since I haven't heard of any other games that make people do that.

I think they were tied up on the 3 DVD thing since the cost would apparently jump if it was on 4 DVDs, if they were able to have more repeated assets on each DVD in SO4, then you'd most likely see less swapping, that's one reason John Carmack is trying to limit the DVD number of Rage to under 3 DVDs because of that as well(cost.) Tri-Ace doesn't fuck around when it comes to graphics for the most part among JP devs, so the amount of assets were probably pretty big and hard to fit under 3, hence, swapping like crazy. Just get the PS3 version imo.

@Bolded - Absolutely, being a 3 system owner has many advantages!



No one in the world ever gets what they want, and that is beautiful.

joeorc on 21 February 2010
dunno001 said:
Hmm... getting prices for actual replication is a bitch, since everyone seems to want you call or e-mail for a quote, but here are some numbers I've found, allowing replication of 5000 copies:

DVD-5: 53 cents each
DVD-9: 58 cents each
BR-25: $1.57 each (site: http://www.sfvideo.com/ )

DVD (unspecified size): 58 cents each, will drop to 19 cents each for large enough (unspecified) order
BR-25: $2.20 each, or $1.95 each at 10K units (site: http://www.rovix.com )

DVD-5: 50.58 cents each
DVD-9: 72.68 cents each
BR not offered (site: http://www.nationwidedisk.com )

So what I'm seeing is still a significant gap in pricing for making a disk. 2 DVD-9s appear to be cheaper than a single BR-25 in all cases, however. So no, pressing BR disks is not cheaper. (Also note that I did not find pricing for pressing BR-50s at all, so I can't look at that angle.)

look again .that still depends on the volume and a company by company basis, those you listed do you think they get the volume's that say a company like Sony get.

say as an example of one of the companies you jist listed for rovix

AACS and disc royalty charge is included.
Freight is not included.

listed is :

10000……$1.95 each
5000........$2.20 each
2500........$2.75 each
1000........$3.90 each

now think about how many these game companies need produced!

quite a bit more than 10,000 copies!

noticed at a 1000 it's $3.90 but drop's to $1.95 nwo what's the order per disc when you order 100,000+

LET'S TAKE AS AN EXAMPLE Square:

FFXIII  they put out 1.8 million copies in japan first week?

and that's with BD-50's which be more expensive than BD 25's but with the greator volume rovix's price dropped per disc the more you order, with 100,000+

your saving's would be better than it would be at  $10,000

here is one:

$1.44 @ 100,000 per 25 , and for BD 50's its $2.55 per $10,000

http://www.pacificdisc.com/PricingBluRay.html

 

 



I AM BOLO

100% lover "nothing else matter's" after that...

ps:

Proud psOne/2/3/p owner.  I survived Aplcalyps3 and all I got was this lousy Signature.

dahuman on 21 February 2010
Uberkiffer said:
Jordahn said:

I’ve seen some of the recent debate over which is the better multi-platform (Xbox 360 and PS3) version, using the number of DVD's to a single Blu-ray as a factor of argument on this site.  Sadly, it has been blown out of proportion for the most part, and there is a reality everyone needs to face.

  

It’s just a fact that one disc as opposed to several is a convenience no matter how small of a convenience it is.  And do some blow it out of proportion?  Yes.  But what’s even more annoying is the “we’ve changed discs before back in the past” argument.  It’s now 2010, NOT 1995.  Developers and gamer have the option of Blu-ray NOW as opposed to multiple CD’s IN THE PAST as the only viable options aside from cartridges.  ANY of you who use the “we’ve changed discs before” argument is ONLY making excuses when a PS3 version of a game has the convenience of one Blu-ray.  And not everyone thinks that changing discs is a big idea when one disc is still preferable.  But whether you have that choice or not (usually due to console ownership or lack thereof), it’s still an advantage of convenience.  Did changing discs bothered me on Final Fantasy VII when I first bough my PSOne?  Never did.  Would I have preferred not to change them out now that I look back?  Of course if it could have been helped.  But since it was fine to switch CD’s back two generations ago maybe we should have stuck with CD's for last generation and NOT have used DVD’s while continuing to use CD’s now?  See, I didn’t think so.  In principle, how much simpler can than be?  When the content is practically the came, the less discs the better.


I promise you that it takes me far less time to swamp discs in Mass Effect 2 or Lost Odyssey combined than it does for the 10-15 minutes most every PS3 game takes simply to install for the first time.  The convience of one blu-ray comes with the inconvience of having to wait for longer load screens and waiting for installs.  Where there's a win there is a fail.  If blu-ray could read/seek as quickly as DVD, I wouldn't even bother to post.  But the facts are that I'm 30hrs into ME2 and I've swapped discs 1 time... boo hoo.. a whole 20 seconds of inconvience.  I went over to my buddies house the day Dragon Age came out (after I already had been playing it that day on my 360) and watched in enjoyment (sarcasm) as he had to wait 17 minutes (I timed it) just to be able to play the game.  Yeah... blu-ray is WAAAAAY better.

na, not every game requires an install on PS3, and the loading goes way low if you do install the games. I still remember when I had the 360 that I'd install most of the games anyways since it would lower the noise and have faster loading times. Dragon Age is also the best on PC..... play it right! geez!



Around the Network
dunno001 on 21 February 2010

*sighs* Okay, find me multiple sites that gives public quotes on replication of 500,000 BR-50s, then. Good luck with that.

I picked a number that could be found at several sites, but is still large enough to do some volume discounting. Sure, the BR cost would drop more in excessive bulk, but then again, so does the DVD cost, as evidenced by that same site that you chose to cite. If I allow the same ratio of dropping, then the DVD would be 19 cents each, and the BR would be 66 cents each. That's still a significant price difference, some of which is the licensing fee, and that just can't be mitigated.



-dunno001

-On a quest for the truly perfect game; I don't think it exists...

joeorc on 21 February 2010
dunno001 said:
*sighs* Okay, find me multiple sites that gives public quotes on replication of 500,000 BR-50s, then. Good luck with that.

I picked a number that could be found at several sites, but is still large enough to do some volume discounting. Sure, the BR cost would drop more in excessive bulk, but then again, so does the DVD cost, as evidenced by that same site that you chose to cite. If I allow the same ratio of dropping, then the DVD would be 19 cents each, and the BR would be 66 cents each. That's still a significant price difference, some of which is the licensing fee, and that just can't be mitigated.

now look at this:

for dl-dvd9's

10,000 $ 0.55 $ 5,500.00

http://www.newcyberian.com/dvd9rom.html

 

here is something more of interest:

Blu-ray replication facility opens in China
 Share
Wednesday, 04 February 2009

Sony Pictures Home Entertainment (SPHE), Sony DADC and manufacturing partner Shanghai Epic Music Entertainment announced the opening of a new production facility in China for BD25 and BD50 discs.

The facility will provide a monthly production capacity of up to 500,000 Blu-ray Discs, handling local manufacturing for Sony Pictures Home Entertainment and other companies distributing high-definition entertainment content in China.

In the fourth quarter of 2008, Sony Pictures Home Entertainment, through a partnership with Excel media, became the first Hollywood studio to distribute Blu-ray product in China. Matt Brown (pictured), executive vice president, International for Sony Pictures Home Entertainment, said: "As the first Hollywood studio to distribute Blu-ray Disc in China, SPHE is thrilled to see the opening of this new facility to meet the growing demand of our discerning customers in the Chinese market."

Xiao Wu, managing director of Shanghai Epic, commented: "This Blu-ray production line, which is manufactured by Sony, adopts state-of-the-art manufacturing technology and is the most popular one in the world, with 70% market share of global BD lines. The production line adopts the most advanced resin spinning coating and embossing technology with a yield rate comparable to that of DVD. Moreover, the installation and trial run of this line has been operated smoothly and the finished products passed every inspection and have been approved by the Blu-ray Disc Association."

now here:

PacificDisc Announces Lower Blu-ray Replication Pricing


Posted May 20, 2009 02:26 PM by Juan Calonge

Replication company PacificDisc has increased its Blu-ray capabilities by bringing the mastering in-house and announcing aggressive new pricing. According to Bob Novelli, VP of Marketing, "this makes entry into the BD space much more affordable for the independent producer, which is our target market."

As a reference, current pricing for an order of 5,000 bulk BD25 discs would be $9,350, including replication, AACS and mastering (but excluding shipping and taxes). That is to say, overall unit price would be $1.87 per disc.

As is always the case in replication, the per-disc cost varies depending on order size. A larger order of 10,000 units would cost $16,600 ($1.66 per disc), whereas a small order of 1,000 units would run a bill of $3,580 ($3.58 per disc), again including mastering, AACS and replication.

These prices are noticeably better than those that were applied in the recent past. For example, the pricing for replicating 5,000 bulk BD25s (not counting AACS and mastering) has decreased from $3.15 per disc in August 2007 to $1.47 per disc now, or a drop of over 50 percent.

AACS fees have also dropped by around 20 percent (from $1,585 + $0.05/disc to $1,300 + $0.04/disc). However, they continue to be steep for smaller runs. For example, an independent producer ordering 5,000 discs must pay $1,500 in AACS fees alone - in other words, compulsory AACS costs him 30 cents per disc.

PacificDisc agrees that AACS fees, while insignificant for major studios, remain a huge obstacle for the smaller agents and put off many a potential producer wishing to take the plunge. This issue has been repeatedly raised in industry fairs by independent replication houses and producers, who demand a tiered license pricing scheme.

Most of PacificDisc's recent BD projects have come from smaller independent producers, or corporate clients. These include: product demos, yoga and meditation videos, an HD eye candy series (fireplace video, aquariums, etc.) and some indie films. "We've not broken into the mass-market titles outside a handful of PBS stuff," said a PacificDisc representative, "as this is not our niche."

The typical BD orders the company receives range from 1,000 to 10,000 discs, though they have also had some orders for as many as 100,000 units.

As regards disc size, the vast majority of orders are for BD25s. PacificDisc doesn't do BD50 in-house, and contracts out those few dual-layer jobs instead.

 

 


I AM BOLO

100% lover "nothing else matter's" after that...

ps:

Proud psOne/2/3/p owner.  I survived Aplcalyps3 and all I got was this lousy Signature.

dunno001 on 21 February 2010
joeorc said:

now look at this:

for dl-dvd9's

10,000 $ 0.55 $ 5,500.00

http://www.newcyberian.com/dvd9rom.html

Right, and to do BR at that quantity is $1.50 each, dropping to $1.10 at 100K units (at which point, they don't show DVD pricing past 10K). So it takes 10 times the bulk to make a BR-25 equal to 2 DVD-9s for cost. (And, by this point, the cost of BR-50 is double that of BR-25, giving no further savings.) Sure, that might work for a large title's early print runs, but the smaller guys? Atlus MIGHT order 100K of a title, but if they want to order more later? That's when the cost will go up rather significantly, and much faster than DVD, too.

Oh, and that red line that I removed? Thanks for pointing out that my initial choice of 5000 units is a common order.



-dunno001

-On a quest for the truly perfect game; I don't think it exists...

Icyedge on 21 February 2010
CommonMan said:
_honeybadger_ said:
TruckOSaurus said:
I haven't read the thread so don't crucify me if it has already been mentionned but playing Metal Gear Solid 4 I would have prefered changing disk for each chapter than waiting for that horrible install time. Especially when I was on chapter 4 and my brother on chapter 3... we had to wait for the install time every time we played.

unrelated to this, the install and the dics size have no relation, blame kojima productions not the fact that it was single dics VS multi dics.


Simliar to this is how Star Ocean 4 had a bunch of disk swapping on the 360, but that wasn't due to DVD that was poor programming on the developers part, since I haven't heard of any other games that make people do that.

Well, I prefer switching disc over a linear story, or area dissapearing after your on another disc. Sadly, star ocean had all that at the same time lol.



Icyedge on 21 February 2010
Uberkiffer said:
Jordahn said:

I’ve seen some of the recent debate over which is the better multi-platform (Xbox 360 and PS3) version, using the number of DVD's to a single Blu-ray as a factor of argument on this site.  Sadly, it has been blown out of proportion for the most part, and there is a reality everyone needs to face.

  

It’s just a fact that one disc as opposed to several is a convenience no matter how small of a convenience it is.  And do some blow it out of proportion?  Yes.  But what’s even more annoying is the “we’ve changed discs before back in the past” argument.  It’s now 2010, NOT 1995.  Developers and gamer have the option of Blu-ray NOW as opposed to multiple CD’s IN THE PAST as the only viable options aside from cartridges.  ANY of you who use the “we’ve changed discs before” argument is ONLY making excuses when a PS3 version of a game has the convenience of one Blu-ray.  And not everyone thinks that changing discs is a big idea when one disc is still preferable.  But whether you have that choice or not (usually due to console ownership or lack thereof), it’s still an advantage of convenience.  Did changing discs bothered me on Final Fantasy VII when I first bough my PSOne?  Never did.  Would I have preferred not to change them out now that I look back?  Of course if it could have been helped.  But since it was fine to switch CD’s back two generations ago maybe we should have stuck with CD's for last generation and NOT have used DVD’s while continuing to use CD’s now?  See, I didn’t think so.  In principle, how much simpler can than be?  When the content is practically the came, the less discs the better.


I promise you that it takes me far less time to swamp discs in Mass Effect 2 or Lost Odyssey combined than it does for the 10-15 minutes most every PS3 game takes simply to install for the first time.  The convience of one blu-ray comes with the inconvience of having to wait for longer load screens and waiting for installs.  Where there's a win there is a fail.  If blu-ray could read/seek as quickly as DVD, I wouldn't even bother to post.  But the facts are that I'm 30hrs into ME2 and I've swapped discs 1 time... boo hoo.. a whole 20 seconds of inconvience.  I went over to my buddies house the day Dragon Age came out (after I already had been playing it that day on my 360) and watched in enjoyment (sarcasm) as he had to wait 17 minutes (I timed it) just to be able to play the game.  Yeah... blu-ray is WAAAAAY better.

Your on old news, really. Also, the problem with multi-disc is not swaping, but the things developer have to left out of the game or the way they need to arrange the story and exploration so you dont swap disc a la star ocean.