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| Mnementh said: And I am pointing out your biases. Again, this man and many in this generation did much more than any of us to create a better world. And yes, corporate control is much more prevalent today than it was in the past with technology are more prevalent. You want to disclaim his biases, but are oblivious to your own. Again: the sacrifice of his comrades had nothing to do with Turing. That wasn't Hitler. And there are always many freedoms, and many are in conflict. He talks about some, but you make stupid comments like "Like what other implication is there from these comments than Nazism shouldn't have been defeated during WWII?" What is that bullshit? You implying stuff that he didn't say to fuel your own crusade. He cannot complain about the rise of fascism again? About Putin and Trump? About the corporate control? So Turing wouldn't probably happen today, but many other things are. And if you talk about stuff fueling fascist propaganda: currently that fuel is words that Zohran Mamdami and Keir Starmer say. Hasan Piker is currently bringing so much help to the fascist cause. You blame what an old man says instead of looking at these much more powerful or influental people and criticize them to think through what they are saying? I have not seen fascist propaganda picking up the words of this old man, but I have seen plenty for these three. So complain about them. Stop making an old man a target that helped bring about a better world, which you and I are currently profiting off (which is why I said I think the sacrifice was worth it, but then again I didn't know his comrades that have died, so what do I really know). I think you still underestimate the immense cost he is talking about. Dead people are a very heavy cost, and if he is weighing progres and deems it too light, who am I to say he is wrong? I think you are going about this way, way too easy. |
So the point of a discussion forum (that is where we are) is to discuss the topic. What exactly is the general point you're making here about my comments? That his opinion should be consumed uncritically because of a status he shared with millions of other men in his period of time and which he had little choice over? What if my grandfather and great-grandfather (both WWII Vets who fought for the Allies) disagreed with it? What then? Whose opinion takes precedence? He didn't talk about any specific freedoms. His assertion was a general assessment of the state of things then and now. Without any elaboration, we can only speculate.
| Mnementh said: He cannot complain about the rise of fascism again? About Putin and Trump? About the corporate control? So Turing wouldn't probably happen today, but many other things are. |
None of this was in the OP. For example, the word's "Putin","Trump" and "corporate control" weren't in the OP. If they were, my comment would be different. You seem to agree with Alec, so what freedoms are worse now generally than they were in his day? One example being brought up by others is free-speech, but if you click on The Mental Deficiency Act of 1913 link you'd see that people were put into mental institutions for decades solely for being "moral defectives." So I am not sure what sort of free speech existed then.
My comment that you quoted was more about the people sharing this as some sort of appeal to authority about whether or not we live in freer and better societies today than his was during the war, than him specifically. If it is just his personal views that he is holding to himself, then how do we generalize it beyond that? What is the point of sharing the story in the politics sub-forum? That's what the original comment was.
| Mnementh said: And if you talk about stuff fueling fascist propaganda: currently that fuel is words that Zohran Mamdami and Keir Starmer say. Hasan Piker is currently bringing so much help to the fascist cause. You blame what an old man says instead of looking at these much more powerful or influental people and criticize them to think through what they are saying? I have not seen fascist propaganda picking up the words of this old man, but I have seen plenty for these three. So complain about them. Stop making an old man a target that helped bring about a better world, which you and I are currently profiting off (which is why I said I think the sacrifice was worth it, but then again I didn't know his comrades that have died, so what do I really know). |
Clarify your position here. Are you saying the real fascists or those who fuel fascist propaganda are the social democrats and social liberals and not the far-right and their enablers? If so, I don't know if we're going to align here. We probably would more fruitfully discuss the freedom question.
Anyway, I am not "making an old man a target" I am discussing what he said, which is he isn't sure that his sacrifices "helped bring about a better world" because he thinks his current world is less free than the old one. I do believe he believes that, and I don't think he intends for it to be used as propaganda for fascists. But my comments here are to express my disagreement with his position and to point out that fascists are indeed using his words as propaganda. That's the point of a discussion forum -- to discuss the topic at hand.
