Israel-Hamas war, Gaza genocide

[DarthMetalliCube]

Jaicee said:

DarthMetalliCube said:

As a writer and basically a rep here I've shut myself out from the politics side of this site (and likely still won't check it much), but I can't help but wonder what y'all think of the recent so-called "antisemitism" bill passing the house in the US in response to the protests (and occasional brawls). I'm actually more on the pro-Israel side (not so much with the governments but moreso when it comes to the protestors involved - and more I'm non-interventionist as a whole so somewhat neutral if anything), but I find this a scary slippery slope to say the least, as a huge advocate of the 1st Amendment. Thankfully it'll likely be shot down by either the senate or SCOTUS for being unconstitutional..

I'm pretty much in your camp, I think. Since this apparently needs to be said anymore, I feel that the October 7th terrorist massacre and mass rape rampage was a bad thing that shouldn't have happened and find it astonishing that one actually has to say that because it's a contested opinion. And yes, I actually do think that that merited a serious military response. And no, I don't think walling off the Gaza Strip was an irrational response to the election and seizure of power there by a known anti-Semitic terrorist organization. I'm boring that way. Likewise, I can figure out and sympathize with the mindset that goes along with being outnumbered 30 to 1 by mostly hostile Arabs and Muslims in the region. It's definitely Jewish people that are much closer to extinction than Arabs, Muslims, or ethnic Palestinians for that matter. There are literally still fewer Jews in the world today than before the Holocaust. They still haven't recovered from that in population terms and, owing to lower birth rates, are shrinking as a population share both in the region and even within Israeli territorial borders.

None of that justifies the wildly disproportionate military response that we've seen. They've made their point, gotten their revenge, all that sort of thing many times over now. It's time to give it a rest! Seriously, the human cost of defeating Hamas is much too high and there is no serious plan for what happens after that. What happens after that sounds to me like what happened to us in Iraq or Afghanistan. They're making the same mistakes that we did after 9/11 and there seems to be no stopping the current regime in that regard. Well that is judgment they will have to live with. For a very, very long time to come. Netanyahu may think this war is nearly over, mission accomplished, but it's only just begun. My only hope lies in the fact that polls show the Israelis overwhelmingly want a new election some time this year and that someone other than Netanyahu is (finally!) widely expected to win in such a vote. In the meanwhile, I'm with the "Bring Them Home Now!" protesters ideologically. The path out of this mess is a negotiated resolution to the conflict that exchanges the surviving hostages for a withdrawal of the remaining Israeli troops from the Gaza Strip. That probably won't happen, but I agree with those who think that it should.

As to the matter of the protests, like you, I'm in favor of free speech. Not a big fan of the jihadist and pro-genocide slogans and chants that I'm hearing or the speeches defending "the heroic actions of October the 7th", people proclaiming their loyalty to Hamas and Islamic Jihad and such. Those are not anti-war demonstrators. They are something else that I have much less respect for.  It feels like the actual anti-war protesters are in the minority of what we're seeing here on American college campuses and I only hope that I'm wrong about that. At the same time though, I believe that people have a right to say repugnant things that I disagree with and think a better resolution than calling in the cops would be for more college administrators to consider options like holding votes on divestment from arms suppliers anyway, as some have agreed to do. As to the bill you're referencing, I can't disagree with its proposed definition of anti-Semitism, but like I said, I think people have a right to say repugnant things that I disagree with. I'm as worried about it actually becoming law though as I am about the new TikTok ban being enforced; i.e. I'm really not. It won't happen. (Next step for the TikTok ban is the Supreme Court on free speech grounds and TikTok will win.)

That's sort of my take in a nutshell.

Inter-dasting. Yeah, it's a tricky situation. Like, that initial Oct 7th attack was obviously horrible, but now it seems like Israel has gone overboard in their response and are massively losing the optics war currently, especially to the younger voters who HUGELY favor Palestine. I feel for the Palestinian people who have had their lands decimated at this point, though - it probably doesn't need to be said - very much NOT pro-Hamas. And that includes protestors that side with Hamas.

I give a bit more leniency to Israel in a sense too, being essentially the only Jewish state (and a small one) in a sea of larger nations surrounding them, some of them hostile to them. And I also certainly don't think that means they should be hauling off and basically occupying what remains of Gaza, and bombing 10s of thousands of innocents just because they're in the wrong country, for sure. 

I'm typically more knowledgable and passionate about the culture side of things vs straight-up politics, but this issue is starting to capture my interest somewhat, as it seems to be ballooning. Interesting that it's also causing a schism in both the left (Neolibs/older Dems who are more pro Israel vs far left who are mostly pro Palestine) and the right (MAGA/Populists who are mostly neutral/non-interventionist and Neocons who are almost all pro Israel)

Yeah that bill is super ambiguous and anti 1A, so very little chance it survives thankfully.