PAOerfulone said:
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1. (These guys don't have to be featured every. Single. Week. They can rotate and help keep them fresh and not overexpose them. That's one of the things that made NXT so awesome when it was on the Network for 1 hour. You were given just enough to where you still wanted more. Plus, they're giving some of these guys proper time off and willing to meet them in the middle when they need it, because unlike another promotion, they actually give a damn about their talent. That's why CM Punk signed there in the first place.)
I don't like Orange Cassidy's schtick, but not what I was talking about with Pac. I was talking about when Pac knocked Orange Cassidy the fuck out, he was clearly out of it, and then Pac dragged him up to powerbomb his half conscious body. Totally unsafe and ridiculous. If they give a damn about their talent, they should be putting an end to that kind of shit, which actually happens fairly regularly. Matt Hardy wrestling after he was concussed by having his head slammed into concrete for instance. Britt Baker being so concussed in a match she tried to tag the wrong teammate. Allowing Jade Cargill in the ring in general.
But, obviously I don't know the backstage reason for everyone not being on the show, but even talking out the people who were out for travel reasons, that's a ton of people who should be on the card that aren't. And this is supposed to be their biggest card. They just signed CM Punk and are going to have the biggest audience they will have for a PPV in the foreseeable future likely. That's when you want to have the people you view as your future stars on the show the most. But, a lot of guys just aren't there that should be.
2.(Big Show needs a win to establish himself in AEW and QT is an ideal opponent for him to beat and build some momentum that can help give the rub to another young guy. Are you going to put him in there with Miro, or Archer, or Powerhouse Hobbs, or Brian Cage, and have them lose? Let's be real here. And you can't have Big Show lose EVERY match or else after a while, beating him won't feel special anymore. So he needs opponents to beat like QT Marshall, or Dustin and Cody Rhodes, or Sting. Guys who can take the losses and won't be effected by it.)
Lol, Big Show does not have to establish himself in AEW. He's a bigger name than just about everyone there and he's fucking massive. I'm sorry, but a literal giant beating QT Marshall does not in any way help either party. Big Show could lose and he'd be fine, or someone like Jungle Boy can lose to Big Show but still look good in the process standing up to a giant.
(He's freaking Chris Jericho and he was in there with Nick Gage not too long ago, how many 50 year old guys can do that? He may not be what he used to be, but he can still go.)
I'd say a lot of 50 year old guys can have a hardcore death style match where they get their face cut up with a pizza cutter. That's exactly the kind of match they can do, because you could take a pizza cutter to the face at any age. But, I don't think 50 year old men (or any men really) should be doing that. Jericho is sluggish, gets winded quickly into a match, and really needs to come to terms with his body and buy bigger pants because it's unsightly. Watching him just kind of makes me sad now.
As for the Juventud match, I'm putting most of the blame on Jericho because he was the one gassed a minute into the match, and telegraphing spots 10 minutes before they happen. But, sure, Juve can have half the blame, which leaves plenty for Jericho. And, it begs the question of why they were putting on the match in the first place, instead of putting in someone that could carry an older wrestler. I'm guessing it's because Wish it were still Y2J wanted to relive his glory days and no is not in AEW's vocabulary. The rest of Jericho's one on one matches haven't been much better. At this point he should only be in team matches where he can be protected.
(Yes, they do. And it's fucking AWESOME! Sooner or late, we're going to have Hiroshi Tanahashi coming in and they're already building towards a match with Jon Moxley. (You don't think Moxley is pumped for that match? It's fucking Tanahashi, of course he is.) We could get Okada vs. Omega again. Omega vs. Ibushi. Darby vs. Naito. Miro vs. Ishii. Punk vs. Ospreay. Bryan vs. JUST ABOUT ANYBODY! When you have inter-promotional programs and storylines like this, which creates buzz for both promotions, that's good for EVERYONE. And they ARE building their own guys first. Jericho made Tanahashi tap out at Wrestle Kingdom, now he's on the losing end of the feud with MJF. Moxley beat Kenta in Japan and Yuji Nagata on Dynamite, and will most likely beat Kojima tomorrow night to set up his match with Tanahashi. Moxley ALSO lost to Omega, who will eventually lose to the title to Hangman when HE comes back. And it's not like these New Japan guys are main eventing the shows, and when they are, it's to put over the AEW guys. At the end of the day, the faces on the billboards, the guys who are promoted to sell the PPVs, and advertised for Rampage and Dynamite are still their own guys.)
I'm sure Moxley is pumped to get to do what he wants, but that doesn't mean it's best for the company. Tbh, none of those names mean anything to me, and I'm at least moderately into wrestling. Unless I watch AEW and NJPW, this means nothing to me. There's an audience for it, but it's not really mainstream. If Jon Moxley is theoretically one of your biggest stars, you don't need a rub from working with someone from NJPW. You should be using him to get over your own guys.
I have no idea what the financials of AEW are. If this is actually making money, I'd need to see a source confirming that. Getting TV deals doesn't necessarily mean you're making money, it means the TV station is, which would be the case for instance if you're a billionare's son who is willing to take a financial hit to put on a vanity project. Personally, it seems doubtful that this would be profitable, because they keep signing bigger names, presumably for about as much or more as WWE would pay, and the ratings are staying around where they are. But, I don't know their financial situation.
Either way though, making money doesn't mean it's a good product. WWE is making more money than they ever have, and that does not mean that is the best product.
(That one was on the production crew, not Jericho. What was he supposed to do? Fall on to concrete straight from the top of the cage? You want him to end up crippled or dead? You could have put Darby Allin in that spot and it would've been just as bad.)
This is the kind of thing I mean. People doing weird mental gymnastics to justify something that was objectively shitty. No I didn't want him crippled or dead. I want them to not do the fucking spot if they can't make it look halfway convincing. They didn't have to throw anyone off a cage. This is the kind of bending over backwards people do to defend this stuff, ignoring the obvious logical solution. Do a spot you could actually do. This is a concept that seems to elude most of AEW, but don't do shit you don't know how to do right.
I mean come on.
(Considering how everyone sings along to his theme song even when there's no music, doesn't seem like the task is very tall at all, is it? And Sammy Guevara just won his feud with Shawn Spears (I know it's Shawn Spears, but still, a win is a win.) And before long, HE'LL be the one feuding with MJF. Which makes sense, since he was the one who actually was smart enough not to trust him when he was in the Inner Circle, and it turned out he was right! And PnP are even with FTR at 1 win a piece. And there's a good chance that once they're done with FTR, they're next in line for a shot at the Tag Team titles, assuming the Bucks retain - And if they do, PnP could very well be the ones who take the belts off them. The Inner Circle HAS gotten the young guys over. It's also gotten Jericho to a higher level as well. Who says it couldn't do both?)
The tall task thing was a knock on Jericho's increasing weight. But it's not exceptionally hard to get the diehard fans to sing a song when you specifically tell them to. The question is whether Jericovid is bringing in anyone besides those diehard fans at this point, which I'd suggest he isn't. As for the rest of them, this thing has been running for two years, and you're telling me "Well Sammy's about to get a bit feud! And PnP maybe might have a match against a team who could potentially win the tag titles." Seriously, it's been two years in this group and you're telling me that maybe they'll have something big in the future. That kind of shows how much being in this group has helped them. But, AEW sure is getting the best out of their talent.
(Question: How many people knew who MJF, Wardlow, Rey Fenix, Penta, OC, Sammy Guevara, and PnP were before AEW? These guys are being featured in major storylines and being promoted on a major TV network in front of a mainstream audience, which is FAR more exposure and more chances to be over than they were wherever they were previously, AND they're being presented as great wrestlers, some of whom can be great stars one day, if they aren't already in the cases of MJF, Britt Baker, Darby Allin, and Hangman Page. They're significantly more over by default.)
I was careful with the phrasing to specify when they came into AEW. So, they come in, get that exposure. A year or however long its been later, are they that really better off than they'd been around their debut? It's really easy to tell this isn't the case with people who had been in WWE before (hence why none of them are on your list), but I don't think any of the others (aside from probably MJF, Darby, and Brit) are much better off than they were after their initial couple of weeks. Basically, what has the creative team done to get them over aside from just putting them on TV?
(And what's Miro doing now? Kicking ass and looking dominant. After that feud, he realized Kip and Penelope were holding him back and he dropped the dead weight. Now he's on an unstoppable monster.)
I was talking about writing so what Miro's doing now is a bit irrelevant to the point. But, I came in to watch because I liked Miro and thought he had potential, then saw that stupidity and stopped.
(Because he's fucking Chris Jericho. Steve Austin used to do the exact same shit you just described back in '96-'97, when he was still a Heel, before he REALLY took off. He beat the shit out of a man in crutches in '96, multiple backstage personnel in late '96-early '97, beat the shit out of Lita - who was beloved - in 2001. That entire Stone Cold character was a colossal jackass. He was a HEEL right to his very core, yet he went on to become the biggest Babyface in the history of the business. Why? Because he was motherfucking Stone Cold Steve Austin!!! With the beer, the middle fingers, the catchphrases, the "I don't give a fuck" attitude, the Stone Cold Stunner. He was fucking cool! Jericho - With the music, the jackets, the promos, the bubbly, and the way he carries himself, is fucking cool! Even when he's a giant asshole, just like with Austin, he does it in a way that's so entertaining and fun to watch, you can't help but cheer for him. Same with The Rock. The NWO. Eddie Guerrero. Shawn Michaels. The Undertaker. CM Punk. That's pro wrestling in its purest form, dude.)
That is quite the reach. If you think dadbod Jericho trying to hang out with the cool kids is cool... well that's your business. But, the presentation is not the same. Jericho was not being portrayed as a badass renegade babyface who was willing to eliminate anyone in his path. And they didn't make Austin a face by simply having another heel kick his ass. Jericho was portrayed as a cowardly heel who needed his group to fight his battles. His portrayal was in no way similar to what was being done with any of those other factions (except maybe a little with the NWO).
(Moxley/Kingston; MJF/Cody; Baker/Rosa; The Bucks/Kenny and Hangman; And most recently, Punk/Darby.)
Not really familiar with the Moxley Kingston one. The only part I saw was Kingston getting killed by some sparklers XD. MJF and Cody was everyone being "Hey Cody, that guy is a total dick and he's going to betray you." Then Cody getting betrayed like a dumbass (which really begs the question on why anyone in the inner circle would have believed him even a tiny bit). The Bucks Kenny and Hangman thing is something I can't keep track of. Like I said, I watch it sporadically and every time I did a different person was the face or the heel in the situation. Punk Darby... That's not really a story. It's Punk came in and said "I think that guys a good wrestler and I want to wrestle him". Which is fine, I'm not knocking it, and it's a great way for Punk to start. But it's not long term storytelling. It's just booking a match. Maybe it will lead into a good story, but it's not there yet
(So you completely missed the spot where Marq Quin did an enziguri kick right on Luchasaurus's head, stunning him, which set up the Canadian Destroyer spot for Isiah Kassidy? And when Luchasaurus regained enough of his bearings, he broke up what would've easily been a 3 count. You make it sound like Luchasaurus was in it with Private Party saying "Hey guys, I'll set up my own partner for the Destroyer so you can almost beat us, but I'll break up the count at the last sec, Ok?! TEEHEE!)
Yes, I make it sound like Luchasaurus was in on it because he was in on it. Duh. It's wrestling, it's fake. Of course he was. The point is they're supposed to do it in such a way where I can suspend my disbelief. When you can see Luchasaurus signaling to private party beforehand and you can see Luchasaurus push up on Jungle Boy's thighs to make the flip happen, then I can't suspend my disbelief. But when they do it like this, they might as well have Luchasaurus say "Hey guys, I'll set up my own partner for the Destroyer so you can almost beat us, but I'll break up the count at the last sec, Ok?! TEEHEE!)"
Also the whole point of the Canadian destroyer is that it looks dangerous but is actually pretty safe because the guy taking it does all the work. Doing it like this, Where Jungle Boy has no control over his body, is stupid. Caring about your talent means sometimes saying no when they want to do stupid thing.
(That's how the business is now. That's not just an AEW problem, that's a WRESTLING problem. It was 11 years ago John Cena got DDT'd on fucking concrete and came back and beat both men, made Wade Barrett tap out, effectively burying the Nexus. Or Big Show and Braun Strowman moving around like cruiserweights in their match in 2017. We just saw Bad Bunny do a Canadian Destroyer at WrestleMania. Back in the 70s and 80s, Rocky Johnson's (The Rock's dad, RIP) finisher was a drop kick. Hulk Hogan - One of the biggest stars in the history of the business, maybe even THE biggest. His finisher was a fucking leg drop. Jake Roberts' finisher was the DDT. Now EVERYONE does a DDT. Arn Anderson's spinebuster. Randy Savage's elbow. Curt Hennig's Perfect Plex. The superkick (Good God, the superkick.) The list goes on. That's just how it is now.)
It's an AEW problem because it's happening in AEW. If it happens elsewhere, then it sucks there too. But I wasn't really talking about people kicking out of things. I can buy that someone's super tough and determined. That's a necessary part of the show, even if it is sometimes overdone.
What I'm talking about is moves that defy the laws of physics to the point where I can't suspend my disbelief because the cooperation is too obvious. The Canadian destroyer spot above is an example. Matt Sydal doing a double hurricanrana (one is already pushing the limits). Or one of the Young Bucks doing northern lights suplexes on two guys at once. It's like if you see someone flying in a movie, but you can see the wire that's holding them up. Just ruins the illusion and makes it impossible for me to care.
(Maybe? I've lost count how many times in an arena with 5-10-12k people, the crowd was chanting "FRESHLY SQUEEZED! FRESHLY SQUEEZED!" Clearly you didn't watch Double or Nothing earlier this year when he was in the Triple Threat with Omega and Pac for the AEW title and the crowd was RED HOT for him, thinking he might actually win the title.)
I said maybe, because I don't know if the novelty has worn off yet. That tends to happen quickly with comedy acts. Maybe he's still over, but I haven't seen him in months so I just don't know.
(The flat-out best wrestler on the planet. That's what he's supposed to be. Did you get Kurt Angle in 2000? Shawn Michaels in '97 when he was drugged up, formed DX, and playing strip poker in the ring with Hunter Hearst Helmsley and Chyna? Despite their goofy, bizarre, and even controversial mannerisms, you still took them seriously. Why? Because despite all the comedy crap, the oddities, and the humiliating stuff they were doing outside the ring... INSIDE the ring, once that bell rang, and it was 'GO' time, they were the REAL DEAL and I dare you to find anyone, in the ring, who was better. Omega is the same thing. He's the Otaku of pro wrestling, right down to his finishing move. A stereotypical anime villain, who acts odd, does funny or weird crap that sometimes makes you go "Really?" But when that bell rings, and it's 'GO' time, he is THE MAN. (Becky Lynch, change your catchphrase.) He's in a league all on his own and nobody can touch him. (Which can sometimes lead to him letting his guard down and get too cocky which ends up being his downfall - Like a certain white and purple tyrant from Dragon Ball Z.)
He's not the best wrestler on the planet. Or close really. Kurt Angle at least had a legitimate claim.
But with Kurt Angle, he had a character. When he came in he was goofy and painfully earnest and wholesome. Sacchrine to a fault. It was endearing, and contrasted with what he could do in the ring. And, he was a face, so it was ok for him not to be menacing and dominant. Then when he was the wrestling machine he was completely determined, focused, brutal, and intimidating. He wasn't trying to do that while also spraying milk at people. Or being intimidated and scared by Hornswoggle. Or whine and cry when he had to actually have a match. Yeah, gotta say I don't know where you're getting that "too cocky" thing when he tries to actively avoid competition at every opportunity.
DX's appeal was that they were counterculture. They were doing things you weren't supposed to on TV to stick it to the authority. That's why you were supposed to like them, because they were renegades. And the things they were doing were to get under the skin of people not just random moments of stupidity. They were stirring the pot and challenging authority not making crayon drawings like they're literally mentally challenged. Oh and DX were in their late 20s/early 30s their first run. And sorry, but some things that work for the youngins don't work when you're 50. It's more like DX's 2009 or so run where middle aged people were trying to relive their youth and it was cringe as fuck.
With Kenny Omega, I'm not sure what the pitch is. If you're claiming he is just that good at wrestling, I'm not seeing it. Especially on a roster where everyone is doing crazy spots every match, he doesn't stand out. And, he's supposed to be a heel. Whereas if I was supposed to be in awe of his wrestling prowess, I should be cheering him no? If he's that damn good he shouldn't be whining and throwing tantrums when he's booked in matches (nothing wrong with that for a heel in general, but not if your thing is supposed to be you're just too good and cocky). There are really very few people who got over on a big level purely because they were good wrestlers, and without a clear compelling character behind it. Honestly, Bret Hart is the only one that really comes to mind, and he's no Bret Hart in the ring (few are).
(The reason why people in general are more accepting, forgiving, and well receptive towards AEW in relation to WWE is because they actually have plans with their talent that prioritize trying to get the best out of ALL of them, and not just a few chosen ones, even if the crowd isn't behind said chosen ones. But because they have so much talent and so little programming, they sometimes have to cut or leave stuff out for the next show or for Dark or Elevation. But at the very least, they try to do right by them. Tony Khan is actually trying to put on a show that the fans will like. Is every show a home run? No, of course not. There are going to be stinkers and whiffs. But at least he tries to do right by the fans. Whereas Vince either has no idea what the fans want or just clearly doesn't give a shit and at times seems to put on a bad show to SPITE the fans. And you may not be willing to invest in the product despite the arrivals of Bryan and Punk, but there are A LOT of other people that will. Their foundation is perfectly fine. A few hiccups here and there, but nothing significant that will hinder the growth of the company, which they've steadily been doing since they've gotten out of Daily's Place and gone back to live crowds again. If you're not sold on it or don't like it. Then, maybe pro wrestling is just not your thing anymore. Because many of the issues you have with AEW are issues that span across the entire industry.)
That's something you're saying, but it's not something I'm seeing. The best you're coming up with is telling me about guys who have been in a program for two years that their push is coming.
But, we will just assume that Tony Kahn wants everyone to be happy. I don't give a fuck. I mean, I want everyone to be happy on an abstract level, but as a fan, I want a good wrestling product. I'm sure the people backstage are very happy to be working with someone with a nearly bottomless pocketbook and who is motivated more by his personal desires than by money. Sounds like a great environment. I'm sure guys are happy that they can basically book their own matches. I'm sure they're happy to have nobody telling them "no that's fucking stupid, don't do that". I'm sure Jericho is happy to be able to be presented as a top guy 10 years past his sell by date. I'm sure guys like Luther or Janella are happy to collect a paycheck despite bringing nothing to the product. I'm sure the Big Show and Mark Henry are happy to be presented as stars instead of being humiliated by Randy Orton. It seems like a really fun place for them to work.
But, as a result, the show is a mess. If you say yes to everyone then you wind up with a bloated roster where you can't feature everyone. If you want to try to get all of those people on the show somehow, you wind up with a million factions, and nobody knows who any of the individuals in them are. If you want to make sure everyone looks good, then you wind up with no way to distinguish the actual stars (some people's job is to lose). If you say yes to everyone's ideas whether or not you can implement them properly, then you have Eddie Kingston being killed by pop rocks.
Your last line pretty much reinforced my point. If these are industry wide issues, then I don't have to watch any promotion. If they all suck, they all suck. If every restaurant is serving shit and yours is the best, I'm still just going to make a sandwich at home.
Last edited by JWeinCom - on 05 September 2021
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