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JWeinCom on 16 May 2021
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Eagle367 said:
JWeinCom said:

Driving a group to another place is not eradication. Again, we have a word for that, which is displacement. Eradication is physical destruction. If you want to say eradication of culture, that's sort of metaphorical, but it can be used that way. But that's not what you're saying. You're saying Israel is trying to eradicate them, the Palestinians, which is simply not true.

The definition of genocide is incomplete, even if we take their definition. You missed the introduction.

"Genocide is defined as any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group." That part is pretty key because otherwise any murder can be called genocide.

And again, it simply does not seem that Israel's actions are intended to destroy Palestinians as a group. I also don't see which of those categories this falls into. If killing or physically harming any number of the group is genocide, that's a charge that could be made against either side. The conditions in Palestine may be unwarranted and harmful, but they are not severe enough to "bring about their physical destruction". No actions have been taken either to prevent births or forcibly transfer children.

I would say whether or not genocide is occurring is not a nitpick. There's a pretty big difference. If the point of the thread is discussing Israel's actions, then an accurate description of what those actions are is pretty important. It's also directly relevant to how the US media is covering it. You are claiming that the coverage is biased, but if your perception of the situation is not accurate, then that can also be part of the problem. This should not be covered as genocide, ethnic cleansing, or one of the worst human rights atrocities the world has ever seen, because it is not any of those things. 

Israel is for sure trying to wipe the Palestenian identity. Israelis don't acknowledge the existence of Palestine or Palestenians as a valid identity. They call them Arabs. They also take more and more land from Palestenians in an effort to squeeze them out of the area. If the possibility of a Palestenian state ceases to exist, is that not the death of an identity, of an ethnicity? It is genocide, it is apartheid, it is ethnic cleansing and it is one of the worst hi,an rights atrocities in the world right up there with Yemenis, Uyugurs, Kashmiris, etc and in the top echelon of human rights atrocities.

Palestenians in Gaza can;t have electricity because Israel doesn't allow it. People can't fish because israel doesn't allow it. No proper healthcare, no proper food supply system. You can't enter or leave Gaza without Israel's permission. Israeli soldiers rip down solar panels, if people try that. Gaza has no autonomy. West bank is shrinking constantly as Israeli settlements expand more and more. In the end, there will be several Gaza like situations where the people of West Bank will be covered up by Israel from all sides and have very little space for themselves and then they'll be in the same situation as Gazans. And even in West bank, the PA can barely do anything without Israel's approval. Israel wants to remove the Palestenian identity from the face of the Earth. What would you call that?

I'm not sure what you mean by they don't acknowledge the existence of Palestine or Palestinians. Here's a transcript of a speech by Netanyahu. He uses the term Palestinian no less than 20 times, and also use the term Arab separately and distinctly. I'm not endorsing anything in the speech, but I'm not sure where you've gotten the idea that Palestinian is not acknowledged as an identity.  https://www.timesofisrael.com/full-text-of-netanyahus-speech-today-recalls-historic-day-of-israels-founding/ The Palestinian National Authority issues Palestinian ID cards which are approved by Israel. Again, not endorsing the practice, but that is another example of them recognizing Palestinian identity. 

If the possibility of a Palestian state ceases to exist then that's also not genocide or the death of an ethnicity. Because... uhhh... they're you know, still alive. Ethnicity and nationality are a different thing, and there are often multiple ethnicities within a country. Palestine has to my knowledge never been a sovereign state, yet the identity exists, so clearly that's not required. Texas was once a country, then it became not a country. That was not genocide. Likewise, there was no Prussian genocide. There was no genocide of Constantinoplians (or whatever you'd call people who lived in Constantinople). When the Roman empire fell, that was also not genocide. 

For argument's sake, I'll accept all of the allegations you make in your last paragraph. What would I call that? I dunno. Not everything has a specific term. But, I wouldn't call it genocide. Or ethnic cleansing. Because both of those things require populations of a group within an area going way down. However, populations of Palestinians are going up in Gaza, the West Bank, and within Israel. If the numbers of a group are going up while a genocide is happening, that is akin to it being raining in an area and the ground getting drier.

I know you would really like to use the word genocide but words have meanings. For reference, in Rwanda, 800,000 people were killed in 100 days. That is genocide; an attempt to kill all members of a particular group. Not some kind of metaphorical death of an identity. This is like saying a man grabbing a woman's ass without consent is rape. It may not be okay, but it is not rape, and that kind of usage cheapens the term for actual victims. 

Last edited by JWeinCom - on 16 May 2021