PS5 Showcase - Wednesday Sept 16

[DonFerrari]

coolbeans said:

DonFerrari said:

We aren`t past the point. You really can`t accuse Sony of not giving information about those games since well they had only two communications about those games. One where they showed the console for the first time and some games that would show on it, and another one now and with the second one they informed on their own blog (and had other publications asking clarifications that were given) that those 3 games were crossgen, and had to correct the wrong information about Demon`s Souls.

How is any pretending on that if you were so sure HFW was crossgen that you fought to the point of being attacked as you claimed? People make assumptions all the time. We had many assumptions regarding price for both family of consoles based on the vague "price conscious" of the consoles. But that had both people assuming PS5 for 399 and others 599 using the same phrase, for the first the reasoning was that Sony saw that PS3 and X1 being over 499 sold poorly at start the second saying that costs and inflation would justify and that if they had a higher price they would use other words. Is there any ground to say that Sony being vague about it mean they lied or misled? None.

Have I said it is 24 months cut and dry? Nope, I even used end of 2021 instead of counting 24 months (which would make that phrase be into 2022) so I have no idea what you are getting over here or what you want to discuss regarding 24 months. Is it because I said we have one console exclusive for Xbox being confirmed to not be crossgen so far? From what I know they didn`t even gave a specific month to release it, just that it seemed to be before the end of 2021.

I gave you an answer, just not the answer you wanted, because you want to make two different situations the same to claim hypocrite or whatever. Jim for me have nothing hypocritical, lying or misleading he said what was their strategy and so far it seems they are acting on it. MS saying if they meant that all the exclusives over the next couple year would be crossgen then yes they contracting a game to be next gen only while releasing on the window of that "promise" would be a lie wouldn`t it?

You haven`t been able to build a case that sustain that Sony was lying or misled, you use people assumptions to try and prove something, but you can`t accuse someone based on what other people misunderstood by their own with nothing to sustain it. But for some reason you try to use that to defend the phrasing of MS that is completely different.

Let`s even try to give you a leg to stand own and make as if Sony was directly replying to MS.

MS Said: "we don`t want to force people to move to nextgen, so all our exclusives will be crossgen"

Reporter asks Sony to reply to that specifically. Sony says" "We do believe in generations, so we will make games that uses nextgen techniques and features that aren`t available on current gen so people will have a reason to move to PS5 as soon as possible".

That have MS saying they will have all their exclusives games being crossgen so any single game would not being thus contradict. While Sony saying have nothing of the sort, if some of their games use next gen features then you can`t say they lied.

It is just as in math. Depending of your thesis you need 100% of the cases to be that to prove (so you can disprove with only a single case where it isn`t true), while other cases you only need one positive prove to sustain your thesis. Let`s use another example to show it.

Person A says: In Texas it NEVER goes over 100Fahrenheit.

Person B says: In Alaska is POSSIBLE to see over 60Fahrenheit.

In those cases if there is a single second in the whole 4.5Billion years of earth (or let`s be generous and say he ment in the last 10 years) there was over 100 Fahrenheit registered in Texas then he would be wrong. But for second case in that time frame if for that same 4.5Billion years the temperature was always lower than 60Fahrenheit but there was 1 second where it was 60 Fahrenheit or over then he wouldn`t be wrong. And that is why you can`t win your case.

And on your last phrase you were either accusing him or not. You said you stick to it, so you claim he was lying. Not sure why you want to rephrase without rephrasing or accepting you were wrong.

Yep...this is the point that crosses that line for me.  Anyways...

Why not?  Did the time between said communications exist in some void from which they could not give more information?  Of course not.  Not to mention that both during or post-1st event, indies and 3rd party studios not under Sony's umbrella fully provided their own details on the matter.  The Pathless, JETT: Far Shore, Kena: Bridge of Spirits (<- that one was explained afterwards).  Like, you don't just get to ignore that timeline.  And, sure, they were more forthcoming here...as they kind of ought to have been.  And you did talk past my point b/c I never said MS' copious interviews vs. Sony's fewer interviews was what I was talking about.  That's what I'm getting across.

You didn`t understand why I put the MS copious vs fewer for Sony. What was important on that is that since Sony have talked very little about their games and console basically they had 2 times to talk about that, they didn`t in the first but did on the second. If you look for MS reveal and multiple talks not all of that would have been clarified at all. Just look at their two presentations and almost no game had even a tentative year informed. You not liking that all information was given on the first opportunity doesn`t mean it was wrong or anything from Sony to do it.

This is such a nonsensical way of approaching what I'm arguing. I'm literally setting up a hypothetical scenario wherein I'd be disregarded or shot down for claiming Horizon II is going to be cross-gen.  The assumption of exclusivity didn't just come from osmosis.  That's what I'm trying to point out.  That's not even controversial.

So it didn`t happen, you are just pretending that you would be shot down if you have said it? Then I won`t even discuss it.

How else am I suppose to interpret this: "MS said all exclusives would be crossgen for the next 2 years, at least one game isn`t, so he wasn`t true on exact quote."  That's literally in your previous reply.  

MS said next couple years, I used next 2 years, why does their doesn`t mean 24 months but mine have to mean? Again until the end of 2021 would be less than 24 months.

Pivoting isn't an answer.  So yeah, I don't like it.  What's your argument for saying my counter-example is dissimilar?  We are on the topic of potential corporate deception, right?  I'm bringing up one of the most popular criticisms against Microsoft/Xbox in respect to lying or deceptive advertising.  Oddly enough, it seems like did answer the question in a vague way:

I already gave you multiple times why it is dissimilar. One talks specifically about having all games being crossgen. The other is about supporting their nextgen console, how are they the same? They aren`t, you are just trying to push that to make someone accuse Sony of lying or say MS wasn`t lying. You are trying to get a not guilty for MS by warping what Sony said into something that isn`t like it at all. Seems like you even ignore the example that would show the total difference between both comments from MS and Sony.

"...you use people assumptions to try and prove something, but you can`t accuse someone based on what other people misunderstood by their own with nothing to sustain it."  

So you agree then that Microsoft's Console Launch Exclusive tagline at events isn't deceptive to any degree, correct?  I'm just pointing this logic back at you to find some semblance of consistency.  God knows you're not doing it with direct responses.  Given the bad faith I just can't help but detect every step of the way here, a part of me 99% knows you've criticized them over that phrasing in the past.  There's just no other way you seem this unwilling to simply provide a yes/no to that.

Don`t remember I saying it was in bad faith. But when only one single AAA would be crossgen (yep I was said Gears Tactics should also be considered, but then I saw it already released in PC, it is just that console version will be at the time of Series release so basically X1 version is being hold back) and one of their bought exclusives will release only on Series. Would you classify that being deceptive, misleading, lying or what? The thing is by the time they said it they most likely already knew how many games were targeted to release by 2021 end.

Just so we're clear: I've never been against the logic you're laying out at the end.  As I said, MS made their own trap with the '1-2 years' comment compared to Ryan's later quote & actions.  But as I initially said, the framing and how unforthcoming they acted with this info is still pretty dicey.  He has to have known what he was doing and fanboys lapped it up like they always do.

So are you going to do the Ludicrous Speed route and say "perhaps Sony didn`t say it but their fanbase used it and kept mocking MS"? He have done it whole gen regarding the power gap. Sony didn`t talk about X1 at all or said their console was the strongest ever. They put the specs of the console and that is just it. Fans of Sony used that to say it was stronger and bring on most of the multiplat comparison (as did MS fans on the previous gen), and the mockery only began when MS fans started to bring secret sauce into the conversation.

Could Jim have better communication and could Sony presentation have more information and all dates and consoles and duration of exclusivity? Sure it could. But it usually isn`t like that in console. I didn`t see any out of their way try to hide information or deceive, just that at the time they revealed the console the focus wasn`t the same as in the second show.