EnricoPallazzo said:
Said I was going to go back to it and forgot it, sorry. Since you are a very strong supporter of stay let me just tell you what I think so you can, maybe, understand me better. I do not think brexit was a good idea. For me it would be MUCH BETTER if stay had won, as I'm a latin american with EU citizenship living in Britain. So, yeah I'm one of the directly impacted by the brexit decision. I am also against simple majority people votes. A result of 52-48 should not be a definitive result and on those votes, in my opinion, a minimum threshold of 55% or even 60% should be used when making such decision. 52-48 just means the country is divided and probably if you had another note 6 months down the road there was a good chance the result would be inverted. The same goes for people's votes on independence and other decisions that can impact a country decades or even centuries down the road. I am also against the decision that made (2 million?) british citizens living outside england to not be able to vote, although that was the rule and if I'm not wrong you also cant vote for normal elections. At the end of the day you left the country. The best option would have been for the EU to tackle the problems and criticisms people have on EU, face the problem, discuss it with society. Instead what everybody did was just shame people who had a different opinion. A few problems: - EU started as an economic bloc and with time became a political bloc. When people voted to join EU back in early 70's (if Im not wrong) it was to join an economic bloc which is absolutely amazing and definitely (almost) nobody would be against it. With time the integration just became more complex, it transformed into a political bloc with almost no power to each country population to make any change on it. Yes there is a parliament but even if, let's say, evil conservatives in england elected 100% of the british representatives in EU parliament, well there is nothing you can achieve, it's just a couple of votes. With time that leads to even grater insanities such as creating an EU army and fiscal union (which will need to happen to keep euro alive). - Since british people have no say in EU decisions, or at least almost no say since it is just a couple of votes, that leads to creation of several rules and regulations and laws that well you just need to suck it up and accept it, like for example the fishing quotas or environmental regulations that the british people may not agree with and need to follow anyway. - Inclusion of a lot of countries in the EU that not necessarily were properly prepared for it or that have a very different cultural and economical approach - And last but not least the real reason for brexit but it cannot be mentioned by british people as they will be shamed, immigration. I dont wanna go on this subject but it definitely is a problem in britain especally with the huge mass immigration that happened in the country. While most left leaning people dont care and actually support mass immigration, there is a lot of people that thinks there should be a limit to it and that despite the economical growth in GDP it brings, it also creates a lot of cultural problems and a strain in infrastructure. Immigration wasnt a huge issue in Britain during the 80's and 90's but once you start to have 500k people arriving per year and even reaching 700k in one year, well a lot of people thinks the problem must be discussed. And since the problem cannot be discussed the only place where you can safely give your opinion besides the pub or the dinner table, will be the ballot box. - Then you have the elections and the campaign with SO MANY LIES from both sides, the shaming of everybody that did not agree with the Guardian, the ridculous approach on BBC and iTV of always bringing to the discussion from the conservative side a very stupid person to give the impression the conservatives are ignorant and racist, and all the projections and predictions about the economy that just didnt make any sense at all, totally project fear. As if britan would not survive outside EU, like if britain could not be just a regular country like many other first world countries. Predictions that just didnt happen, and now stay supporters are just creating more updated predictions that really cannot be trusted at all. And in the end the left always defend that economic growth should not be the end game of all decision but that is exactly what the left did with brexit. And it didnt happen, why should why believe it will happen this time. How can I trust the predictions, the people that makes the predictions, how do I know if they are considering everything necessary in the calculations, considering not only risks but also opportunities? Once you loose trust it is really difficult to get it back. - After the voting, the british had ALL THE CHANCES to stay in EU in an unofficial way through Theresa May deal. She could not get the votes as the tories were tore in two, but labour could have accepted it. They could have voted with May. The deal was AMAZING for those who voted to stay. All Karl Marx Corbyn wanted was power and another election. Time and time again they could have helped and put the interests of those who voted to stay in first place but no. In the end he got the election he wanted and well, the results were not good. For him. So considering everything, I understand and respect the will of the british people and maybe I would have done the same if I as british. Just to finish, the press also tried to put fear that we Eu citizens would be mistreated, shuned, would be deported etc. Of course nothing happened and the process to get the right to stay was easier than paying a car parking bill. |
"Said I was going to go back to it and forgot it, sorry."
Thats quite all right.
"The best option would have been for the EU to tackle the problems and criticisms people have on EU, face the problem, discuss it with society. "
the thing is when theres 27-28 nations, that all want differnt things, have differnt issues, no one is going to all be equally happy with outcomes.
Also they did discuss things, and voted for them.
Also note that in about 98% of the votes on everything, that EU put to a vote, the UK agree'ed with it.
So we re talking about 2% of the time, the UK wasnt happy with the choices of the EU.
Like I said, you cant have everyone always equally happy with every single outcome of a vote.
And yet, more often than not, the UK agreeed with basically everything the EU put to a vote.
So why, did they run the Brexit campagne? what was it run on... lets circle back to the reasons, since their at the heart of what your talking about.
Sovereignty:
that 2% of the of the times, votes went against UK intrests. (49% of voters for brexit, put this as main reason).
Why should things voted for, by 28 nations, effect us in the UK? We're the british! kings of the world, rulers of the sea's, we had a empire the sun never set on!
We're exceptional and great, and cant be put on equal terms with others! Even when we get special privilages, we can't accept sometimes things arn't in our favor (2% of the time). This is too much!
When you then ask them (the common man, that voted for brexit), if theres a specific instance, of something agree'ed on in the EU, that the UK voted against, they can't name anything. Yet their quick to say "we want our sovereignty back!" dispite not haveing knowledge of a single instance of such. The brexit voters are quick to spout propaganda and slogans by politicans, without knowing anything about them.
Immigration:
(33%+ of those voteing for brexit, put this as their main reason for voteing it),
Tighter border controll, and immigration. UK felt too many immigrants went from other nations in EU, into the UK.
Fair enough.
"The Economist concluded 'High numbers of migrants don't bother Britons; high rates of change do.' Consistent with that notion, research suggests that areas that saw significant influx of migration from Eastern Europe"
1) *south park voice* "They took our jobs!"
2) cultural change = ei. non christian. aka too many muslims.
So the avg. brexit voter is worried about low payed, unqualified work, and muslims. So get brexit done, and lets stop that.
These are like the 2 biggest things about Brexit.
There was some lies about how much it cost, to be a member (which apparently wasnt fact checked).
There was russian trolls on the internet spouting propaganda.
"Since british people have no say in EU decisions, or at least almost no say since it is just a couple of votes, that leads to creation of several rules and regulations and laws that well you just need to suck it up and accept it, like for example the fishing quotas or environmental regulations that the british people may not agree with and need to follow anyway."
Democracy works like that... the minory gives way to the majority.
UK has a representative say, and could argue its points and find other nations in the EU that support its views, and thus that way get results.
This goes back to that 2% part, 98% of the time, the UK voted in favor of whatever was put to a vote.
UK choose to leave, but not on those reasonings.
All you have to do is go back and look at the brexit campagne.
The issue wasnt about a EU army, or the Euro, as you mentioned.
Alot of it was just immigration, and lies about membership costs.
"Then you have the elections and the campaign with SO MANY LIES from both sides, the shaming of everybody that did not agree with the Guardian, the ridculous approach on BBC and iTV of always bringing to the discussion from the conservative side a very stupid person to give the impression the conservatives are ignorant and racist, and all the projections and predictions about the economy that just didnt make any sense at all, totally project fear. "
The conservatives, called all the arguements from the otherside "project fear".
And yet their playing out right now.
Remember what a "hard brexit" was unthinkable, because of the economical damage it would do?
Dont worry, it wont come to that... promised Boris.
Its just project fear! .... whats happend? No deal is like 99.9% certain now.
"they need us, more than we need them" (we have leverage, so dont worry, dont fear us getting "no deal", I promis you that wont happend)
Sure... that FTA is gonna happend.... your not gonna crash out, without any agreement, and maybe not even be able to get WTO membership!
Remember when they promised, there was no issue with the Irish Border? they could get around that, even with brexit.
Dont worry, its just project fear.
What happends? theres gonna be a border.
How many lies has the brexiteers group now been caught up in?
So many things they said, wouldn't happend, are now happending.
"from both sides,"
"project fear" was conservatives way of ignoreing reality, and fooling the masses into ignore them as well.
They are playing out now.
Also from both sides? lol no.... the lies have been proven to come mainly from 1 side (the brexiteers).
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The important part is below:
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LAST but not least....
YOU DIDNT ANSWEAR MY QUESTION! lmao.
I asked what happends, if UK crashes out hard, and cannot even get WTO membership?
You gave me your opinions on why, the UK had Brexit.
I asked you a question about the future of the UK and its economy.
What is the UK without trade with the EU (without a FTA, as boris promised), and without potentially even a WTO membership.
