The LGBT thread (Revisited)

[JWeinCom]

Snoorlax said:

TruckOSaurus said:

That's the problem right there, for some people LGBTQ+ people being "present" in a game is considered an attack (or an agenda) and in those cases I'd argue they are simply homophobic.

I'd argue that as well, but remember that Ellie is LGBTQ.

Do most people have a problem with Ellie for being LGBTQ?

the-pi-guy said:

The issue is the belief that LGBT has political undertones.  People in real life are gay, bisexual, transgender.  It has as much to do with politics as trees or the sky. Those aspects aren't political undertones, those are aspects that were made political by people who think they shouldn't exist.  Similarly people who see the game as a political statement for those reasons are the ones who want to make it into a political statement.  

The idea that there is a default, and that anything else must be a political statement is something that's actively harmful for games.  It stamps out creativity.  And it ultimately means that people have less games that they can connect to.  

People want variety in characters.  Different designs, different personalities, etc.  It helps us to connect with the experience.  

And it's disappointing that game devs want to make characters that can be connected to, and people attack them for trying.  Imagine a world where every character was female (and maybe you're perfectly fine with that).  But wouldn't you think it was great to be able to have a male character you could connect to?

I'm fairly certain most gamers have a problem with the direction the second game has taken and not with the inclusion of LGBT people it self. It's just that nowadays you can't question anything without being accused of a phobe, sexist or closed minded person. If Naughty Dog wanted to create a game where they can explore homosexual relationships better, then fine why not just make a new IP about it?

No they take an immensely popular game and basically say FU to the fans of the original and that's what gets them so angry. Sure there are a bunch of closed minded people here and there who hate the game just for including LGBT people but i really don't think we have an anti- Homo, Black, Women problem as a gamers community. 

JWeinCom said:

I haven't actually played the game, so my comments are based in the general discussions I've seen around this issue.  That being said I believe Ellie was 14 or so in the game?  And this game she's a young adult?  It makes sense that sexuality is going to be a bigger part of her life at this point.  Just like romantic (yet strangely platonic) relationships became much more prevalent in the Harry Potter books as the characters aged. 

Disregarding that, do you honestly think the backlash would be the same if this was a heterosexual relationship?  Because I've seen similar objections tons of times in regards to gay, trans characters, in all sorts of circumstances, yet not once have I heard anyone accused of pushing a heterosexual acceptance agenda. 

Ok so Ellie is lesbian and while it was unexpected, yes, there was no outrage over this. If the developers never bothered to reveal her sexuality, nobody would really know or even care about it, you would just assume that the norm is heterosexual but that's not what they did with Ellie, No problem. They could've shown Joel to be gay from the start but they chose not to. See? Because that's how they set up their story. How come gamers can now be accused of anti-gay or anything like that just because we question the second games handling of it's story and characters?

In the second game Ellie and Joel are being thrown to the side for a new character nobody knows anything about, other than that she's out for revenge and happens to be trans and comes really out of nowhere. Fans just don't like the way this is going and i understand their frustration because it feels like we need to be lectured on acceptance when nobody had a problem with Ellie being gay.

Add, diversity if it adds to the story to character development, not for the sake of being "aware"

A quick google search confirms there was at least some reasonable level of outrage over Ellie being a lesbian.  Less than there is now, but that's likely due to the fact that homosexuality is far more accepted these days than being trans or some sort of gender non-conforming person.  Which I would say is at least partially due to how homosexuals have been portrayed in the media.  I cannot fathom any level of outrage, no matter how minor, for a 14 year old female character kissing a boy.  

There are also plenty of times that a franchise introduces a new character to focus on at the expense of the old.  I've never really seen this responded to with anything other than mild to moderate annoyance.

But the main problem is still something you're not getting.  You keep insisting that there has to be some special reason for a character to be "diverse".  

You wouldn't say "don't make a character white unless it adds to the story or character development".  

You wouldn't say "don't make a character black unless it adds to the story or character development".  

You wouldn't say "don't make a character Asian unless it adds to the story or character development".  

You wouldn't say "don't make a character blonde unless it adds to the story or character development".  

You wouldn't say "don't make a character straight unless it adds to the story or character development".  

You wouldn't say "don't make a character short unless it adds to the story or character development".  

Yet when it comes to this circumstance where someone is defying gender norms, either through their sexuality or the way the present themselves, there needs to be a special reason.  A character can't just be trans because that character happens to be trans.  What is the reason that there needs to be this special requirement?  I'm open to suggestions but the only logical reason I can think of is that people just don't like that group of people.

Last edited by JWeinCom - on 01 May 2020