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Pemalite said:

I don't think that really happened on the Xbox One X often though? I know a few titles did... But it was far from the norm really.

That's why next gen will be even better. Freesync Monitor are cheap so it's worth to invest 

Well. No it can't... I have been over this a millions times on this forum... But I'll go again.

Well.  it can... I have been over this a millions times on this forum... But I'll go again.

There are a ton of different types of compute workloads... Again we have 8bit, 16bit, 32bit, 64bit floating point and so on.
Then we have 8bit, 16bit, 24bit, 32bit, 64bit integers as well. - For example most GPU's don't have native 64bit integer support, so they emulate such functionality on the 32bit blocks... Which comes with a corresponding hit to performance.

And FLOPS only refers to one of those. 32bit floating point. Aka. Single Precision.

Well i know about all of you mention above no need to write  , FLOPS can be used to compare for the same bit workload and the same integer support and functionality  . Let say you can compare 32 bit fp to 32  bit fp on the same architecture design CPU or GPU. Like  "comparing the same line up GPU like RTX 2070 with RTX 2080.  FLOPS can be used to market and to tell the difference between those card, so seller or vendor dont have to write all the detail of the advantage everytime they want to sell better product. Unless if you really want telling all those crazy detail to consumer LOL 

Not to mention that other parts of the chip come into play during pure compute workloads as well... For example the Geforce 1030 has a DDR4 and GDDR5 variant... In terms of compute there is only a difference of 6.5%. (1152Mhz vs 1227Mhz @384 Cuda cores.)
But the real world performance is often 50% or more slower.

Like I Said I agree, the problem who the hell want to explain all of those to consumer. LMAO 

Eutherium mining for example which tends to be a pure compute workload also sees significant gains with more memory bandwidth on the graphics card... Which just further emphasizes that flops is not a relevant capability measurement tool even between GPU's of the same architecture.

Now you getting out of the topic LOL.

Global Foundries have stepped away from being in the fabrication process race... So they are out.
TSMC's 7nm+ is going to be leveraging EUV, so the designs won't just automatically translate over.

We still have more than a year and half  and we don't know if Sony/Microsoft planned behind close door, there is still room for theory and prediction  

TSMC's 7nm+ is likely to only be a marginal improvement over 7nm anyway with 20% density improvements, 10% performance increase... Probably not worth making the gamble on that process for the next gen consoles monolithic chips. - Yields are stupidly important.

20% density improvement is big , especially combined with 10% performance. 

TSMC's capacity is also only going to be 1,000~ wafers per day... That can't all be reserved for the next gen consoles, other partners building ARM processors, GPU's and other pieces of logic will be jumping at that as well.

Samsungs 7nm process however will be employing EUV... But lets keep in mind that it's not the same as TSMC's 7nm+ process, don't fall into the trap of their marketing shenanigans... You can't compare Samsungs 7nm to TSMC's 7nm, marketing has made the comparisons useless on a number to number basis.
Both TSMC and Samsung will have up-to quad patterning for their fabs.

Is it possible that the next-gen consoles could use 7nm+? Yes. It's possible, it's just highly unlikely at this stage.

We just predicting for fun , we still don't know how Sony and Microsoft real chip design is and timeline/stage of  testing. They might been planned to use 7nm+ 

And yes Money is important for Microsoft and Sony, the more you spend on Chips and the production-of... The higher your costs become for designing and building a console which flows on to the consumer.
Long gone are the days where it's even financially feasible for console manufacturers to dump billions on designing chips for their devices... Sony and Microsoft have limits you know, which are generally governed by shareholder expectations.

Money is important that's why they are looking for future investment not sort temporary sells gain. Spending a lot of money on expansives chip that will be cheaper down the line is very chip proposal , especially when you want to compete on the saturated market. Both companies are ready to loose money to gain consumer and ready to lose some to gain market share.  

I think myself and many others had hoped that the next-gen consoles would be targeting high-end GPU performance rather than the mid-range that the Xbox One and Playstation 4 eventually settled on to see a bigger leap in general fidelity.
Don't get me wrong, we will see a big leap, it's just not going to be as impressive as it could be... Partly that is down to AMD not being able to keep pace with nVidia's performance cadence.

Is it enough for a console? I would argue more is better.

bigger leap in infidelity is not determined by how powerful the GPU alone, it need mass market/peoples that using the platform so Game developer can utilize it , optimize it, and develop for the mainstream. Just look at Ray Tracing , it will be a fad it's only small people buy the GPU and no games are utilizing it because nobody by the games. 

Like I said you're contradicting yourself, you said you want more powerful console but at the same time you are pessimist , with the progrest. Unlike me i am a realist. With all the current leak and progress i am already happy enough, but i still have hope and dream based on the unknown info that can be theorize to used as debate and speculation.

But if you optimize for a Geforce 1080Ti, then the same performance gap between the GTX 1080 and 1080Ti will continue to exist.

But than nobody optimizing the games for 1080ti except modders or making your own games. Because games are made and optimize for low spec PC or mainstream PC

Optimization isn't some magical construct that makes hardware more capable and excludes all other pieces of hardware.

Agree but in reality without optimization hardware is just a bunch of lifeless piece of metal without function.  

The PC gets optimizations... I think console gamers forget this.
For example... Whenever AMD and nVidia roll out a driver update it's not just to make things look prettier or fix bugs... But to introduce optimizations that improve performance...
For example here we can see where optimizations improved performance by 15%.,5707.html

Driver is not the only one, they have API and OS and game design . PC GPU are stuck with bloated API and OS and in fact most games on PC are made on low spec PC on mind, it was held by lowest spec PC. And also PC are used for not just gaming, all its power are divided. for console you only need to play games. All of 8 core PC will be divided by driver and OS and API to run multi tasking while console only for games. That alone speak why PC need double the performance of console to run the same games.

Microsoft does a similar thing with Windows, which will often increase performance. For example:

And of course we have improvements at the API level:

Again Vulcan is still PC low level API, cannot compare directly to the metal optimization on console, and on top of that Directx 12 is still suck , you cannot beat Vulcan on optimization.

And often game developers will roll out updates that also improve the performance of their title.

So obviously "optimizations" isn't just a console-only thing. - The evidence is simply undeniable at this point.

Of Course isn't a console thing, but my point is still correct, PC need raw performance due to compatibility on every spec combination on the market, thus it's sacrifice maximal optimization that can only happen on single device like console. 

In short, there is absolutely no game that runs on a Playstation 4 that can't run on a Radeon 7870... Often, games will run better on a Radeon 7870 at the same visual settings as the Playstation 4 too... Like Overwatch, Battlefield 1, Grand Theft Auto 5 and so on.
Plus you get to choose your settings on the PC... Game doesn't run at full 1080P on the Playstation 4? Well, on a Radeon 7870 it can, just lower a couple of settings.

Like I said it depend on games developer, not all developer want to re construct their games using console API, most of the times they just lazy and ported directly using Directx or Open GL 

They could, but... People will whinge.
Price is a stupidly important factor for allot of people, especially for those who sit lower on the socio-economic ladder.
Remember the Xbox One at $500, remember the Playstation 3 at $600... They were all contentious price points.

 If you follow the progress of price and consumer capability on buying product,  599 USD is very cheap if we compared in 2019 to  2007. There is a thing called inflation , 600 USD in 2007 will be equal to 750  USD in 2020 . Consoles are not for lower socio - economic peoples. In fact , poor gamer will just buy budget PC because they can be used for working and play old games, hell they will mostly buy discounted games and often pirated and play free games. Console is for people who spend more money for simple device and don't want to buy maintaining PC. Console is  niche product that's why it's always stay below 200 millions sells. 499 USD is super chips for console that will be release in 2020, if the power ratio is good, the problem with PS3 with 599 price is the price ratio . even Xbox 360 is better in most of the games and came up early.   

We are still a long way away from a full ray traced gaming world, it might take a few more console generations for rasterization to fall away to the side.

Ray Tracing will be used on the 9th gen hardware, just like it is being used in some 8th gen games, it's the extent of it's use that is up for debate.

That's why a hybrid design will be used in this gean, but we are talking about marketing jargon, not what will Developer used, so ray tracing is still a selling point to sell a console. 

It's a value-added incentive. Not the be-all, end-all selling point.

Scarlett will be rolling out Xbox 360 and Original Xbox games in it's backwards compatibility efforts as well, hence why Microsoft pulled that team away from the Xbox One, will Sony do the same with Playstation 1, 2 and 3 backwards compatibility on the Playstation 5? Or would you deem it as unimportant?

I am not willing to place bets on how well any console is going to sell, my tastes don't align with the average consumer.

On console  early year it big advantage. Especially if they have less launch games . But remember it's only works if their previous console are the champion on the market and for the consumer. Xbox will struggle because this gen they only got 40 million consumer, so their fans from this gen will only migrate within that number. PS5 in the other hand will guarantee 100 million  PS4 player/gamer who like PS ip and have all their games to buy PS5.  So as long PS5 is not following  Xbox One X disaster or PS3 disaster . They are on great position on the market. But I bet they will be fine , Sony are not stupid. But i do believe Xbox also will do a great Job, but they need to do more than Sony to gain more consumer.

Good thing I provided a fairly comprehensive list where successive consoles launched with full backwards compatibility (In hardware!) yet didn't sell as well as their predecessor.

That's because the console  you mention have other factor that make them failed on the market. 

And as the evidence I provided earlier, backwards compatibility isn't actually a big selling point for most gamers, it's a value-added incentive, sure. But it's far from being the most important aspect... Otherwise everyone would be a PC gamer as you can run your PC games from 30~ years ago.

Like I said nobody buy PC alone to just playing games alone, and nobody want to spend time using emulator and update it , there is a reason why console exist , people want something simple. 

backward compatibility is not a big selling point,  but it's still a selling point and crucial. Especially if you want all your loyal fans to buy your product and will be a great factor on deciding on buying process "if everything worked as planned " (no more disaster on launching or announcement or wrong at pricing or designing the system)