the-pi-guy said:
Alright here's where I had a misunderstanding. The bolded is exactly what I'm talking about. Gender isn't derived from clothing, but clothing is one way to tell genders apart. Because people that identify as male tend to dress a certain way, and people that identify as female tend to dress another certain way. How do I differentiate between the two? By appearance, unless the person says otherwise.
That's exactly the point. No classification is perfect. I'm not trying to make a perfect classification. It's about understanding there are exceptions, and trying to make laws that harm people who are exceptions is wrong.
>why can't the same occur with the unicorn identity? I never said it couldn't happen. There are people attracted to buildings, people who have multiple personalities, and so many other things. You keep trying to pose this as some kind of gotcha, when if you actually read anything I've said, you'd understand that I admit that such a thing could happen. >names and pronouns are completely different, one differentiates individuals and the other differentiates between men and women That's not true. There are plenty of pronouns that don't differentiate between men and women. In fact, most pronouns don't differentiate between the two. In fact some languages have three sets of pronouns, with a third one that is gender-neutral.
>everyone does, most of our perception in case you did not know occurs subconsciously through techniques like pattern recognition That doesn't mean it's subconscious. You conciously train your brain on pattern recognition. If I write down a brand new shape, your brain doesn't subconsciously know what it is. You have to consciously learn what it is. Even then you still have to make conscious decisions about what things are. Just because something has a subconscious element doesn't mean it's beyond your control. > can you not see that if you claim that its all in someone's head that it then becomes reasonable that someone can identify as anything? Can you not see that there are biological complexities that make gender disphoria a possible thing?
Let me clarify. People that are not harming others don't deserve disrespect for their actions that don't harm others. >what about those who detransition and regret their transition? There are plenty of reasons why people could feel regret for transitioning. -It doesn't bring the relief they thought it would. Everyone is different. Everyone responds differently to transitioning. This is literally pointed out in the video that you posted. -They get harrassed by family and friends. That doesn't mean they are lying to themselves. It just means that particular treatment didn't work.
>from what i've seen more research has to be done on this with regards to brain structure because there's a lot of research that's pointing the other claiming that men and women are equal since their brains are relatively similar There are still differences in brain structures. >with regards to hormones how could that be the case when the main component of transitioning is hormone therapy? There are all kinds of different hormones. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexuality#Prenatal_androgen_exposure
>so its brain structure that determines gender and brain structure is binary? I never said brain structure is binary. There are differences in brain structures, and there are variations between those brain structures. Clearly non-binary. >they are choosing to identify as something other than what their appearance indicates them to be, is that better? Just like people with depression choose to take anti-depression medicine.
Male, but they were born female. |
"Gender isn't derived from clothing"
ok what is gender derived from?
here you appear to conclude that its what a person chooses to identify as
"How do I differentiate between the two? By appearance, unless the person says otherwise. "
you are saying here that your ultimate decision is based on what the person claims to identify as
" It's about understanding there are exceptions, and trying to make laws that harm people who are exceptions is wrong."
aren't you arguing that the classic understanding of what a man is and what a woman is need to be expanded to include those who identify as such?
you aren't treating them as if they are exceptions but instead rendering the classification meaningless to ensure there are no exceptions
which laws are you referring to? you mean stopping male assigned at birth people from accessing women's washrooms? to me that's for women to decide, if they are ok with it then let it happen, even put in urinals if it comes to that
"when if you actually read anything I've said, you'd understand that I admit that such a thing could happen."
you instead of dealing with what i was saying tried to twist it to make it seem like i was talking about different species when i was clearly talking about identity
its ironic though that you and the others pushing this idea tried to fall back onto biology to try to invalidate my argument, to me it indicates that on some level you don't really have conviction in this idea but that's my opinion
"There are plenty of pronouns that don't differentiate between men and women."
in the context we are speaking in we are referring to people transitioning between man and woman, obviously meaning that the relevant pronouns in this discussion are he and she which are used to differentiate between the two
"That doesn't mean it's subconscious."
its subconscious and embedded from around the age of 2 or so from childhood and i'm unsure but i'd expect there may even be biological instincts from birth that facilitate the differentiation
a young kid knows to suck on its mother's breasts for sustenance for example
"If I write down a brand new shape, your brain doesn't subconsciously know what it is. You have to consciously learn what it is."
again certain aspects of our perception are instinctual and exist from birth, this probably isn't entirely the case with differentiation between men and women but it sure develops pretty damn quickly
"Even then you still have to make conscious decisions about what things are. "
when you recoil after touching a hot pan do you have to think about whether it was hot or not or do you just recoil instinctively?
what about if someone throws something at you?
what about when a dog barks?
i find it hard to believe that you are trying to get me to believe that you have to stop and think in order to recognise people you know or whether someone is a woman or a man
"Just because something has a subconscious element doesn't mean it's beyond your control. "
in this case it clearly is, i want you to go outside, go to the nearest town and walk around and every time you see someone that is clearly a woman try to convince yourself that its really barack obama
try doing that for a month or so then send me your results
"Can you not see that there are biological complexities that make gender disphoria a possible thing?"
never denied that it was a thing and that sucks for those people, but that doesn't mean that we should completely upend how society works
blind people are inconvenienced by how towns are organised, do we restructure towns entirely to make things perfect for them or do they have to accept to some degree that things will be a little harder for them?
well in reality we've settled on the latter
this is besides the fact that as i've said the differentiation process is subconscious anyway, people may lie to themselves and say that a man in a dress is a woman but their perception will tell them otherwise
"That doesn't mean they are lying to themselves."
but come on, in some cases its clearly delusion or a phase and that's why they detransition
"I never said brain structure is binary. There are differences in brain structures, and there are variations between those brain structures. Clearly non-binary."
fair enough, ok so brains exist on a spectrum is that it? and each type should have a gender? this is a question i'm not saying this is your claim, i'm asking because it seems like that's where this is heading
"Male, but they were born female."
their appearance is what you'd expect from a man and obviously no one would hassle them for using a male restroom
but that's not what this discussion is about, if this was just about appearance then i wouldn't have an issue
"
"How do I differentiate between the two? By appearance, unless the person says otherwise. "
you are saying here that your ultimate decision is based on what the person claims to identify as"
that is my problem
