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setsunatenshi on 23 August 2018
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WolfpackN64 said:
setsunatenshi said:

1. i started by saying this argument has false premises which I have clearly demonstrated.

2. the fact you accepted time and the universe to have begun at the same time (which is intellectually honest of you) absolutely disproves the premise of the universe having a cause. 

3. I'm not under any delusions that now you'll find yourself an atheist and negating your faith and beliefs because at the end of the day that's what they are. you believe those things because you were conditioned since you were a child, you hold on to those beliefs as a victim of your own sociological context and the beliefs of those around you. 

4. More importantly to one of my first points, there's nothing in this argument that points to the specific deity you defend. It uses a special pleading argument that for some reason makes you ignore the impossibility of a cause to the universe but you're happy to ignore a cause to your deity. 

5. The usual leap in logic that occurs after the premises i stated is "therefore god caused the universe". I didn't state it on purpose to see if you would do it. But doing so would necessitate somehow we all agreeing that your deity didn't "begin to exist" which is a laughable special pleading :)

1. I disagreed and shown why clearly enough.

2. Also shown why that isn't necessarily true

3. I have to dissapoint you, I'm a reborn Catholic

4. Necessary beings have no cause, that's the whole stick of the argument

5. If God didn't exist, he couldn't come into existence, since a necessary being that is a first cause is always prior to existence. Since God is prior to the universe and time, he is in the only position to be the first cause.

1. You may disagree, but it's still true for both cases. You may cover your ears and ignore it, but that's your prerogative. I showed why both premises are false and even if you want to question the first one, the sheer fact that you conceded time existing only as the universe exists, it clearly shows the universe has no cause. It's really not something you can argue, sorry.

2. No, you haven't. Why would you think that was the case? A cause requires time preceding the event. Please show me a causality without a unit of time before? It's both logically and scientifically impossible. If you can't grasp that concept then I'm sorry for that but it's you, not me.

3. I won't even get into how exactly you thought you could jump from a universe with a cause to believing there's a guy in Rome that is infallible, yet changes his mind all the time. You're still that because you've been persuaded by others (hence the victim of your sociological context). Pretty sure if you were born in Japan 1000 years ago you wouldn't reach the logical conclusion Catholicism was the right religion lol

4. You can't dictate necessity, you must demonstrate it. Only the universe is necessary in this argument (as it is has no cause and marks the beginning of time), nothing else. You don't cause that which needs no cause ;)

5. Assertion with no evidence. You're trying to define some deity into existence, not show evidence of it's existence. That argument will only convince an already believer. If you have no problem believing X (whatever god you believe) has no cause, why would you struggle to believe the universe has no cause? At least the universe we all know exists, your god is only inside your imagination as far as I'm concerned.