President Trump Sides With Russia Against the United States.

[dharh]

DarthMetalliCube said:

dharh said:

The fact that you call this "some Facebook ads and Wiki leaks emails" shows your naivete.  This wasn't some half ass initiative to 'push our buttons'.  This was a concerted effort to sow division.  Despite what others think, I believe this wasn't necessarily an effort to get Trump elected, but an effort to divide us as much as possible.  Perhaps divide us as much as we have ever been since the civil war.  People who have been friends for decades, families, are cutting ties over this shit.

Safeguards?  What safeguards.  IT security in America, in the World, is a disgrace.  It is in utter shambles.  We can protect our election machines, we can protect against propaganda?  What a farce.  Our banks have been hacked.  Our supposed computer security virus companies have been hacked.  Our government have been hacked.  Tell me why tf you have any faith in these supposed "safeguards", while Trump himself basically calls these institutions anti-american corrupt failures.

I HATED the fact that Hillary was the nominee against Trump.  I HATE dynasties.  For the first time in my adult life I almost didn't vote.  But I saw Trump for what he was, a snake oil salesman, and felt I had no choice but to vote against such an anti-american destructive person.

Information false or true CAN and DOES change peoples opinions.  Again the fact that you think that propaganda cannot change american minds into voting contrary to what they would do if they knew the whole truth makes me think you are naive.

Also, funnily enough, a friend of mine who is a staunch Trump believer, lest you believe I am one of those people that don't allow apposing views or dump friends just because they believe different than me, thinks that voting for Trump was voting for war.  War against Islam _and_ North Korea.  He still believes this despite Trump being so amenable to North Korea and Trump being essentially nothing more than isolationist when it comes to Muslim countries.

The Big bad Russians pushing the narrative that the DNC is completely corrupt, and that the RNC is _not_ is perhaps indeed a reason why you voted for Trump.  Or perhaps not, one person is not a valid way to test how much a failure or success an initiative a push by Russians to manipulate our 2016 election was.

The fact is they _TRIED_ to manipulate our election.  Whether they succeeded or failed is not the damned point.  They cannot be allowed to  do this with immunity and they certainly cannot be allowed to this again without us trying to stop them.

If it helps you sleep at night to deny Russia tried to mess with our election.  Well, you are probably a lost cause.

Uh huh.. Key word is "TRIED TO meddle."

So then I have to ask. Why? Who specifically? What the hell is their connection to the Russian government and Putin? Russia is a HUGE country with a massive population of 145 million people. How are we certain these people aren't just rogue hackers looking to stir shit up? Why the hell would Russia care about American politics? What's in it for them? Where's the evidence? What *specifically* is the motive? Nobody asks these sorts of questions and I've seen very little evidence of substance to answer most of them. Folks just gobble up this stuff pushed out by MSM and buy it all unquestionably.

It's funny these arguments always boil down to the dangers of outside entities "controlling the flow of information", though these same people seem to be ok with the MSM (which is essentially controlled by a handful of major corporations at this point) shoving constant propaganda down people's throats to try and influence elections with virtually no dissenting voices or opposing viewpoints.

Also, even if this meddling narrative is true which I have my doubts, how many times has the US meddled in the elections of foreign nations? So we can dish it out but we can't take it?

Even if it was in fact the Russians that further exposed just how corrupt the Dems are through Wiki leaks.. Good! Stuff like this needs to come to the light, and if it takes some Russian hacker nerds across the planet to do it, good riddance. The collusion against Bernie was unforgivable. This is where the real undermining of our democracy took place, though nobody seems to remember this.. For the record, I'm not saying the GOP isn't corrupt, but at least in the last 5 + years or so they certainly have seemed like the lesser of evils, it only slightly.

About the division.. The only division I see these days, at least from where I sit is from the modern left and DNC, often times hostility and even downright violence if you don't completely fall in line with these people. Hell I'm pretty left wing myself, (probably center-left with libertarian leanings) and I've gotten a ton of shit from people in "my" camp for apparently not completely towing the party line or challenging some of their preconceived ideals. I've seen these people, even some of my family and friends, become ignorant, intolerant, authoritative, bigoted, and downright hateful of times - everything I thought we were supposed to be against. These are things I observe and experience in my own life. Again, NOTHING to do with foreign boogeymen half way across the world. And obviously I'm biased, but I truly don't feel I hold any particularly crazy or controversial views; I consider most of my views perfectly logical and reasonable. And yet I truly feel I have been pushed away. I really think this is happening on a mass scale.

I just don't like what the residual effects and fallout of something like this looks like if people don't question and think more critically.. between undermining 63 million US voters trying to make their voices heard by shrugging them off as "ehh it's just Russians" while simultaneously pissing off a country with one of the biggest supply of nukes and creating a potential for, at the very least, another Cold War, and at worst - nuclear war. Never thought I'd see a revival of a Russian cold war in my lifetime but here we are.. I'm trying to see any positive outcome for any of this stuff and I fail to see anything close. It's just all very saddening to me.

Oh gosh where do I start.  Perhaps by countering the notion that people apposing Trump are undermining 63 million voters, actually 62,984,825.  As apposed to the 65,853,516 people who voted for Hillary.  Hmm.  Not to say that I am fighting _for_ those 65+ million voters.  Just saying that opposing Trump is oppressing voters is bullshit, let alone a fake majority of voters.

Why?  The motivation is clear.  We sanction them for their actions.  They want to screw with us.  Cause chaos, to stop us hurting their economy.  Stop us from preventing their overrun of previous former soviet states.  Make us weaker.  They appose us, we appose them.  How is that not understandable?

Despite your attempt to trump up their size, the fact is their economy is pretty small.  California itself has a larger size economy than Russia with Russia being 3.6 times the size.

Also the whataboutism is laughable.  We have apposed them before, and been bad, so why should we care about their meddling in our elections?  Such Russian crap.  

This is not just about Russians exposing Dem corruptions, as apposed to the expansive Rep corruption that we all know and love.  This is about Russians interfering in our democracy purposefully to interrupt our normal democracy, despite how flawed it is already.  We can normally disagree with each other, but these days it has turned into an animosity that we can't turn away from easily anymore.

You _seem_ like a person who thinks.  Try to think like a person who has a different perspective than you, walk in another person shoes.  Otherwise you are just another bystandered flabbergasted why people are so angry that they are being crushed and suppressed.

Sorry I couldn't reply to your entire post.  I am too tired.  Reply more tomorrow.