Delta and United join list of companies to cut ties with the NRA - maybe this truly is the end of gun rights in the US?

[o_O.Q]

the-pi-guy said:

o_O.Q said:

"You're thanking freedom for having guns, when there are other countries that gained their freedom without guns."

you're trying to compare apples to oranges as i said previously

a country being actively oppressed and fighting for its freedom is different to the oppressor deciding that the control its exerting is not beneficial anymore

 

"This is the most peaceful time in history. "

no, the middle east, africa on a wider scale and even europe and asia are not peaceful at this point in time

"but because of democracy. "

"Social-Democracy, however, wants, on the contrary, to develop the class struggle of the proletariat to the point where the latter will take the leading part in the popular Russian revolution, i.e., will lead this revolution to a the democratic-dictatorship of the proletariat and the peasantry. "

vladimir lenin

the soviet union was democratic... how did that turn out?

there's a reason why america was founded as a constitutional republic and not a democracy... and there's a reason why there's such a profound push towards a democracy

 

"Many countries on Earth today, have enormous freedoms despite ridiculously low gun ownership rates.  "

i'm not saying you are wrong but can you give an example?

 

"The weapons that were available to common folk throughout history were much closer to the military weapons.  This isn't the case anymore.  The US government literally has the power to end nearly all life on Earth.  "

i already gave my response to this sentiment

there are people that are willing to fight for their freedom regardless of the circumstances, you might not be one of them but the point is that they exist

"you're trying to compare apples to oranges as i said previously

a country being actively oppressed and fighting for its freedom is different to the oppressor deciding that the control its exerting is not beneficial anymore"

The point is that guns aren't the only way to achieve freedom.  The UK has a very low rate of gun ownership, yet its citizens are free.  

"no, the middle east, africa on a wider scale and even europe and asia are not peaceful at this point in time"

No.  The entire world of conflicts in the middle east or Africa or anywhere else are nothing compared to world war I or II.  The fact of the matter is that this is the most peaceful time in human history.

It's a fact, there's absolutely nothing to debate with this point.

https://www.pri.org/stories/2014-10-23/world-actually-safer-ever-and-heres-data-prove

 

"i'm not saying you are wrong but can you give an example?"

Japan has a gun ownership rate of 0.6 (out of 100 citizens).

The UK has a gun ownership rate of 6.2

Poland - 1.3

Ireland - 4.3

Italy -11.9

Denmark -12

 

"the soviet union was democratic... how did that turn out?

there's a reason why america was founded as a constitutional republic and not a democracy... and there's a reason why there's such a profound push towards a democracy"

https://adamsmacros.quora.com/The-USA-is-a-republic-and-a-democracy-dammit

"The United States is a democracy because the authority of the government arises from the people.

Jefferson said it best in the Declaration of Independence:

...to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it... 

"

From Jefferson, governments derive their powers from the consent of the governed.  This is why it's so easy to delude oneself into thinking that guns are what give people freedom. The reality is that optimistically, guns give a bit more power to consent or not consent.  But they are not the only way to get such power.  There are plenty of famous people that proved that.  Gandhi, Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King and many others through history.  

"The point is that guns aren't the only way to achieve freedom."

against an armed oppressor they are the only way

 

"No.  The entire world of conflicts in the middle east or Africa or anywhere else are nothing compared to world war I or II."

i didn't realise that the world wars represented the entirety of human history outside of the present day

 

"From Jefferson, governments derive their powers from the consent of the governed.  "

what do you understand from this quote?:

""Democracy is not freedom. Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to eat for lunch. Freedom comes from the recognition of certain rights which may not be taken, not even by a 99 percent vote.""

the problem with democracy is that if the majority decides that it is just to strip away the rights of all then all are forced to comply

the reason why america was called a "constitutional republic" with "creator endowed rights" is because they understood that they people could be led quite easily to destroy themselves by revoking their rights for greater security

so they put down certain base rights and formed government around that

democracy does not inherently recognise creator endowed rights, the will of the majority of the people becomes law and as a result 

"democracy is indispensable to socialism"